607 Sq – the Coal Miners?

Oh, I wasn’t aware that there were copies there as well. If you look at the edges of the pictures you can see that these are also originals. I suppose that copies were offered to the pilots at the time.
Joce tells me that several pictures of him from that era were taken by Claude Strickland who had a camera and would snap freely whilst they were at Northolt. The attached well known pic of Joce Millard was taken by Claude Strickland. Incidentally, he is wearing his one piece black suit – this enabled him to wear his Irvin jacket whilst flying.
Gerry

The originals along with others for this set of photographs are in the Imperial War Museum Photo archives as they were official photographs.

The photo is in Robert’s new book on 607 Squadron. It shows Kyall in France, and the black suit has a 607 badge on the breast pocket. There is a similar picture of Blackadder in Robert’s article in Flypast.

Gerry,

Interesting photos. Joe Kyall was previously with 607 squadron. Robert’s photo shows him with the black overalls while with 607 squadron

One piece black fliying suits

Hi,
I have a couple of photos to add to the discussion.
Both are of 615 Squadron pilots in November 1940.
Joe Kayll is standing on the right in one wearing his black suit and in the other picture Joce Millard can be seen looking at his shoes and wearing a black one piece flight suit. He bought this in 1937-38.
I have spoken to Joce about this and he recalls that he purchased it in London at a shop called ‘Grocers motorcycle wear’ that used to be in the Edgware Road. He said that the one piece suit was much less cumbersome than the RAF issue kit and became very popular with aircrew. He had all the RAF buttons on his suit Chrome plated so that it looked smart.
I also know that Howard Duart who was an airgunner with 219 owned a black one piece flying suit – I recall him telling me that the first time he wore it in the crew room his colleagues fell about the place laughing at him.
incidentally, Joce’s suit is around somewhere – he gave it to an enthusiast some years ago.
Gerry

The comment reference the press etc was not meant to mean they were issued by the press but that perhaps the squadron commander considered them smarter than normal flying suits. I was also not aware that they were common on other squadrons

Also I do not question the knowledge of Robert as I have worked with Robert and shared my knowledge of the squadron with him.

I have the utmost respect for the work carried out by both Robert and Andy

If anyone knows about 607 Squadron then it is certainly Robert. I would be inclined to take what he says on the subject as gospel. What I would add is that the use of black flying suits was not a unique one-squadron issue. Most other squadrons in the period had them and there is ample photographic evidence of that….including a good many in my collection!

Comments noted Robert, I guess the best answer is not to speculate but to simply say we have no evidence to support when and why they were issued

If thats the way you think, fair enough. Two of the pilots in the above photo are in lighter suits, oddly they are also in all the pics taken in France. I presume then, from your replies, that the black suits were passed on by the press as photo props to the pilots of all the other squadrons that wore them. Some of them, oddly, not in France.
At the Empire Day 1939, they wore white. What was so special about the 1939 Summer Camp, apart from it being the last?

Best Wishes.
Robert.

They probably were for show purposes as they are prominent in the publicity photographs taken in France in 1940 and are known to have been around in 1939.

If they were for show then my best guess would be either summer camp 1939 or Empire Air Day 1939.

I also have photographs from the same period that show standard flying suits

Unique to the unit or not, I remain convinced that black is not the most suitable colour for a flying suit. It shows stains and scuffs too readily, and is difficult to keep smart. This was chosen for show purposes – we are so smart we can cope with even with black flying suits. Surely the standard wartime flying suit was a much more serviceable brown?

To the best of my knowledge only one photo of a 607 Squadron pilot in a black flying suit dates from late 1939: that of Bobby Pumphrey at Acklington, this dates from at least October 10, 1939 when the squadron moved there.
Harry Welford was a trainee during this period. More than likely his flying suit dated from his flying training days beginning in late September 1939. The issue of black flying suits would, more than likely, be part of the general tone down for war rather than any connection, joke or otherwise, with coal mining.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

The black flying suits were certainly issued before departure to France as Harry Welford had one and did not go to France.

I very much doubt we will ever find any conclusive evidence of when they were issued, I have never seen them prior to issue of the Gladiator so it is possible they were issued when the squadron went on camp to Abbotsinch in 1939

“his mine?” Miner or mine-owner?

Sorry,I should have said the mine where he worked. I think it was Backworth or possibly Killinghall. This was in the mid 50s. He was (is?) a grand chap and very popular with us cadets. I wish I could remember his name but it wasn’t Sprott. I remember that he made the front page of the Evening Chronicle who quoted some chap as saying he looked down into the cockpit as he stood on the slag heap.
Jim

There appears to be nothing official, or unofficial, on the use of black flying suits. I have access to various logbooks, photo albums and writings as well as the private papers of Viscount Runciman, CO of 607, 1930/39: if there had been anything at all, he would have had it. The photos of 607 pilots wearing these suits seems to begin with their arrival in France, 1939. Personally I think they were worn only as they were less likely to show the dirt of France: airfields were like a bog.
The connection with miners is very fanciful, auxiliaries were of a certain class and that did not include coal mining on their CV, at least prior to WW2.
The photo mentioned was not included in my book due to an editorial decision but there were others with the black flying suits. All of these photo’s were taken by the press on a visit to France. The photo shows at left: Will Whitty, Centre: Launce Smith, CO, Two to the right are Joe Kayll and Monty Thompson all with the black flying suits. The article in Hurrican Salute: ‘Blackadder’, also shows Blackadder and Mony Thompson with the black flying suits, this was a press photo of the same period.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

“his mine?” Miner or mine-owner? The former would seem to have been very unlikely in prewar days, at least. The latter certainly were on the squadron – Lord Londonderry being the first commander. One contender would be Pt Off Samuel Sprott, son of the owner of several mines in the Consett area and a mining engineer in his own right. A keen local flyer, he was killed early in this time with the squadron.

One of 607’s pilots actually was a miner. I cannot now recall his name but he was a pilot officer in 131 Sqn ATC as well and hit the headlines when he flew a Newcastle Flying Club Tiger Moth at extremely low level over his coal mine.
Jim

The black flying suits were certainly in use by the time the squadron received Gladiators in 1938.

Somewhere I have a colour photograph of the flying suit that belonged to Flt Lt GHE Welford.

I believe that this suit is still in existence with his family in Devon.

I have not come across any reference to the squadron being known as the coalminers.

The only other unoffical name the squadron has used is the “Mountain Goats” which was used from 1951 when the squadron was equipped with Vampires.

This name refers to the squadrons return from call up at Thornaby when they returned to Ouston the airfield was under re-construction and was only considered to be suitable for Mountain Goats. Hence the name.

I will speak to some of my fellow squadron researchers to see if they can shed any light on the reference to the coal miners

The snake emblem is probably local fokelore from the Blackadder series as opposed to having any pinch of reality. Blackadder was a flier (DFC!) and scored one or two kills…..

Half way down the page… http://norav.50megs.com/photo.html

I’ve not heard of the ‘Coalminers’ reference, BUT it would make sence. The closest coal mine to Usworth was Castletown Colliery – approximately 200 yards away from the airfield – with perhaps a dozen others within 10 miles.

Peter Cornwell’s The Battle of France: Then and Now has a picture of Blackadder in his black flying suit, but the badge is the winged lion of 607. I believe the same picture is in 21 Squadrons. Robert Dixon’s book has a picture of Kyall at the same time, in another such suit, and another picture of other 607 pilots in black suits. This does tell us that such were common in early 1940, but tells us nothing about earlier, or “why?”.

There could of course have been a different badge at another time, but the snake coiled around a dagger sounds like the medical symbol – could this have been the unit’s doctor with such a badge? I don’t recall mention of him being a flier.