617 Squadron Lancasters.

I believe the aperture for the underturret was kept but faired over. When we recovered sections of fuselage from a Mk III Lanc, this hole was very obvious. We thought it was the dorsal turret position but some things didn’t match up.

The fuselage mounting for the FN64 turret was used to mount the H2S scanner (where fitted).

Were the a/c’s reconfigured(i.e back to Dams raid set up)to do this job?
I too have seen a photograph of ED932(probably the same as NickB)parked on a post war airfield with her serial number painted under the wing in white and she’d definitely been reconfigured back to “standard” Lanc trim.

I think the pic is in the original “Lancaster at War”.

Miggers

The had to be configured to carry/drop the bombs, but what happened to them after that I cannot confirm.

Sandbag

Just coincidentally found this page in March 1970 Scale Models magazine.

Scrappy, but note it refers to the drawings being “…by modeller Vince Redfern who was connected with the making of these aircraft at Woodford…”

I cannot comment on the accuracy or authenticity of the notes, just thought they might be of interest.

Hi.
Just finished reading “Bombs Tallboy, Dambuster, Grand slam” by
Stephen Flower it states that a ventral position had been considered
and fitted to one of the trials aircraft,but was dispensed with before
the dams raid. But it does not say if it was a single or a twin gun.
It also says that in April 1944 ten modified Lancasters were put into
storage by 617 at RAF Metheringham along with a quantity of Upkeeps.
Regards Phil.

Just to round the aircrafts story off, before they were scrapped crews from 101 Squadron used them to dispose of the unused Upkeep bombs.

This is an extract from 101 Squadron s History, The Lions Reign:

“DAMBUSTING!
During August / September 1946 Al Greenhurst was a Nav on the Squadron. His crew were attached to Scampton for OPERATION “GUZZLE”. This task was to dispose of unused “UPKEEP” bouncing bombs into the deep Atlantic. These bombs were in a very sorry state so they had to be handled very carefully. Three very tired Lancasters were used, all survivors of the famous raid (ED932 AJ-G Wg Cdr Gibson’s aircraft, ED906 AJ-J Flt Lt Maltby and ED909 AJ-P Flt Lt Martin). Several trips were flown out to the drop zone a large area centred on 56N 12W where the bombs were dropped from above 10,000ft”.

Regards
Sandbag

Were the a/c’s reconfigured(i.e back to Dams raid set up)to do this job?
I too have seen a photograph of ED932(probably the same as NickB)parked on a post war airfield with her serial number painted under the wing in white and she’d definitely been reconfigured back to “standard” Lanc trim.

I think the pic is in the original “Lancaster at War”.

Miggers

Just to round the aircrafts story off, before they were scrapped crews from 101 Squadron used them to dispose of the unused Upkeep bombs.

This is an extract from 101 Squadron s History, The Lions Reign:

“DAMBUSTING!
During August / September 1946 Al Greenhurst was a Nav on the Squadron. His crew were attached to Scampton for OPERATION “GUZZLE”. This task was to dispose of unused “UPKEEP” bouncing bombs into the deep Atlantic. These bombs were in a very sorry state so they had to be handled very carefully. Three very tired Lancasters were used, all survivors of the famous raid (ED932 AJ-G Wg Cdr Gibson’s aircraft, ED906 AJ-J Flt Lt Maltby and ED909 AJ-P Flt Lt Martin). Several trips were flown out to the drop zone a large area centred on 56N 12W where the bombs were dropped from above 10,000ft”.

Regards
Sandbag

Manning the FN-64

Odd question right enough….this is the pice from the book…. Best Wishes. Robert.

re. the 3 Group retention of the FN-64 … how was that turret manned? Was there a separate crew-man or did one of the other air-gunners man that position (eg. maybe the front/bomb-aimer)? Thanks Don

But I’m saying the model is wrong!

The Upkeep Lancasters had a single Vickers Gun mounted in the position originally used for the FN64 turret, but in no way is this the same as saying they had the FN64 fitted.

Two quite seperate things.

Ok, bangs head against table….yes it has sunk in now:)
They did have a gun in a mount underneath-but it was not twin .303Brownings.
I understand;) …..and thanks!

So the model is not really wrong. We can say that some, if not all, of the special Lancasters of 617 used for the Dams raid, had this FN64 installation.

But I’m saying the model is wrong!

The Upkeep Lancasters had a single Vickers Gun mounted in the position originally used for the FN64 turret, but in no way is this the same as saying they had the FN64 fitted.

Two quite seperate things.

Thanks for the info. So the model is not really wrong. We can say that some, if not all, of the special Lancasters of 617 used for the Dams raid, had this FN64 installation.
If not a help for aircraft model makers, this snippet remains a help for those just generally interested in the variations and modifications of type.

I believe the aperture for the underturret was kept but faired over. When we recovered sections of fuselage from a Mk III Lanc, this hole was very obvious. We thought it was the dorsal turret position but some things didn’t match up:D

Cheers

Cees

Thanks for the info. So the model is not really wrong. We can say that some, if not all, of the special Lancasters of 617 used for the Dams raid, had this FN64 installation.
If not a help for aircraft model makers, this snippet remains a help for those just generally interested in the variations and modifications of type.

To clarify things, early Lancasters were fitted with FN64 under turrets which carried two .303 Brownings (the extract from Bruce Robertson’s book is in error).

The 617 dam busting Lancaster’s are said to have had one .303 Vickers gun mounted in the under fuselage (probably in the original FN64 mounting point). There is an internal photo of such a gun in situ in Harry Holme’s book on the Lancaster and it is intriguing to think that this might be the 617 installation.

Hope this helps.

Gibson’s aircraft def. survived WW11 and I have a picture of it in one of my numerous books at home taken on a very snowy airfield during 1947.

Soon after it was scrapped! 😮

Oh the short-sightedness of those years (hindsight of course is a great thing!)

AFAIK the aircraft were not converted back to standard because of the intensive modifications. Some were kept in storage in case the Upkeep mine would be needed but this never materialised. The remaining aircraft were scrapped during 1945/1946.

HTH

Cees

Odd question right enough….this is the pice from the book….

Best Wishes.
Robert.

Bit of an odd question, but while we’re on the subject, what happened to the modified Lancasters after the ‘Dambusters’ mission? Were they scrapped, held in reserve, given to an OTU, modified back to standard, or later modified for use with Tallboys etc? It’s something i’ve always wondered

Gibson’s aircraft def. survived WW11 and I have a picture of it in one of my numerous books at home taken on a very snowy airfield during 1947.

Soon after it was scrapped! 😮

Oh the short-sightedness of those years (hindsight of course is a great thing!)

Bit of an odd question, but while we’re on the subject, what happened to the modified Lancasters after the ‘Dambusters’ mission? Were they scrapped, held in reserve, given to an OTU, modified back to standard, or later modified for use with Tallboys etc? It’s something i’ve always wondered

Lancaster Mk 1…this carries an F.N. 64 ventral turret with one Browning 303

Two Brownings actually. 🙂

This came from Bruce Robertson’s ‘Lancaster Story Of A Famous Bomber’ and may be of help. Gun type is given as Browning 303. There is also a piece showing Lancaster Mk 1…this carries an F.N. 64 ventral turret with one Browning 303, aircraft as used by Sqn Ldr Nettleton. This may answer your model queries as early kits weren’t particular with details.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

I think you are correct in that the Dambusters Lancs had a single Vickers K gun fitted in the ventral position (why was this done and was it ever used?).

In 1976 I bought the Tamiya 1/48th Dambusters Lanc kit and it featured this item. I am not sure why the Revell Lanc has the twin ventral turret but it dates back to the early sixties and is not a very accurate kit.

I believe that the Dambusters Lancs were supplied with provision for a rearward and downward facing Vickers K. It wasn’t a turret as such, just the single weapon mounted through a hole in the floor. It was a common feature on many ‘normal’ Lancs built at this time, and it would’ve been a good form of defence against the German nightfighters attacking from underneath. However, the extra weight and the extra crewmember required to operate it meant that it was usually removed before the aircraft started operational flying.