70 years ago – 28.06.42 – RIP F/Sgt Dennis Copping

Out of interest legally is there any reason why the remains cannot be recovered by a private party? As it stands at the moment it appears that the Mod discount them as being his remains -the physical remains of a person do not actually belong to the Mod. Therefore if they were to be recovered and found to be his there is no reason why a burial couldnt be carried out in accordance with the families wishes .

Laurence

It is a shame that Captain Collins did not reply. It seems to me that he could have used your expertise in such matters. Instead, he seems to have been reliant on base-less Bedouin heasay.

Andy: I made similar points to Capt Collins in three emails I sent him, viz who tested the bones and when, and what tests were done. My question is now simply, “Why did he not reply?” The 400-year-old bone story is ludricrous if they were never examined, which seems to be the case. If these remains are not of Dennis Copping, we must find out, and it would be relatively simple to do so. Microscopy for the age, and DNA for the family links. Why, oh why, cannot the Defence Attache tell us the truth and nothing but the truth? We owe it to Dennis’s family to get to the bottom of all this. If it were simply that we are asking the impossible, then OK, that is one point of view and someone should tell us, but it is not mine. And I want to know why this is being covered up.

I have little doubt that these threads are looked at and monitored by those in the corridors of power. That being the case, here is a challenge.

Would Captain Collins be prepared to make a full public accounting of what, exactly and precisely, has gone on since the presence of the remains was first brought to his attention, what ‘tests’ were carried out and by whom, whether he has visited or inspected the remains, what information he has been instrumental in passing to the relatives and what is the nature of his contact with the Italian team and when has he been in contact with them?

Hopefully, he will sooner-or-later be able to furnish his definitive account of events although I do realise that, if I am correctly informed, it is apparently on public record that he does have some history of losing important factual information.

I am, of course, standing by to be banned. Or worse.

Yes, there are many lost airmen to honour. But here we have one whose aircraft has been recovered in a remarkable state of preservation, and of whom there may be remains available. In order to prove, or disprove, that these remains are of Dennis Copping it would mean a relatively modest effort. To find any other remains would be more difficult, but worth undertaking. The surviving family members have stated that they want their nephew found.
The silence of the official lambs is scandalous, as is the apparent indifference of certain of them, and the rank laxity of others.

It’s about the relative rarity of the two events

Please accept these remarks as an objective comment on shepsair’s “Kittyhawk vs Copping” observation near the top of this thread. In so doing I mean no disrespect whatsoever to F/Sgt Copping and the many others who gave their lives in WWII. My Uncle included.

Many many tens of thousands (it must be well into the hundreds of thousands) of airmen gave their lives in WWII … if we remarked on the 70th anniversary of each of those deaths we’d be lost in the sheer volume.

By way of contrast, the finding of the Kittyhawk, inanimate though it may be, is/was an exceptionally rare event.

So, without commenting on the relative “humanity” of the two perspectives, it’s fairly easy to see why they have attracted such divergent levels of attention.

That F/Sgt Copping has been remembered here at all is to my mind a very fine thing. May he rest in peace.

Regards Don

How many thousand views and posts were there on the thread about the discovery of the P40? Can anybody recall? Up into the high five figures, I think.

Am I alone in finding it incredibly sad that there seems to be comparitively very little interest in the pilot, although Flt Sgt Dennis Copping and his family are the only really important thing, here.

Instead, we have a situation where the authorities have clearly fouled-up big time and it all gets swept under the carpet and passed off with little more than a virtual shrug. Meanwhile, in case there is the risk of any ‘jeapordy’ to the precious aeroplane all discussion on that is placed into quarrantine.

I hope the P40 does come back here, although I rather feel that is all that is of any importance or interest in some quarters.

I hate to say it, but sadly there is no profit potential in the remains of the pilot Andy.

He’s not a Battle of Britain pilot. He didn’t fly a Spitfire or a Hurricane, he’s not an Ace, and he won’t be signing autographs at the next airshow.

There’s no story in that unless there is something scandalous as is appears there now might be.

It’s a bit like the never ending argument about providence vs new builds in Spitfires or other warbirds. To me the point gets missed. They’re just machines. It’s the people who flew and crewed them that matter. Without them, those machines are just inanimate objects.

We way too soon forget the people. I’m glad folks like yourself remember that and continue to put them first

Let’s leave that thread conversation where it is please..

And more here…currently!

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120188

Andy

What do I think?

Its not printable here.

As for “little white lie”…more like sodding great big black one.

The more I think about it, the angrier I get.

Same here, Andys. My heart rose when I saw the crash site when the first pics were published and then sank when I thought of the pilot having to possibly walk out. I’ve avidly followed the story but been unable to put my thoughts into the right words that hadn’t already been said.

Thank you to everyone who is working on the recovery of Copping’s remains. A friend mentioned to me the other day he had been stonewalled by lack of interest in recovering remains from a shallow lake here in Australia. I am inspired to see if I can do something.

Andy.
My guess is that in the true tradition of ‘public servants’ that it’s easier to tell a ‘little white lie’ than actually do something, which might involve such dangerous activities as making a decision or having an honest thought.

I can’t think commenting to the DM would do any good (vile little piece of bumwad that it is) or writing to a MP–I can’t put my complete views about them here.

I’ll look forward to hearing what you think.
Andy

Then maybe it needs those who feel strongly to start beating on the doors of authority, and even with the Daily Mail, to highlight this situation!

Although the DM are the only paper (thus far) to run it – and only online – the truth of this whole saga has been very very VERY seriously underplayed.

Like several other posters here I have been close to the whole saga for months. We cannot talk about the P40, and there now seems to be some covert (or maybe overt) censorship or cover-up to a truly scandalous situation.

For the first time ever, words truly fail me.

Not with me it isn’t.
Compared with the pilot the aeroplane is just a load of Ali-scrap.
Like all machines, it doesn’t have a soul–it’s just a machine, a collection of parts–assembled in a particular way.
The machine is never more important than the man.

A.

How many thousand views and posts were there on the thread about the discovery of the P40? Can anybody recall? Up into the high five figures, I think.

Am I alone in finding it incredibly sad that there seems to be comparitively very little interest in the pilot, although Flt Sgt Dennis Copping and his family are the only really important thing, here.

Instead, we have a situation where the authorities have clearly fouled-up big time and it all gets swept under the carpet and passed off with little more than a virtual shrug. Meanwhile, in case there is the risk of any ‘jeapordy’ to the precious aeroplane all discussion on that is placed into quarrantine.

I hope the P40 does come back here, although I rather feel that is all that is of any importance or interest in some quarters.

In essence, thats it. Money.

The CWGC do not have a remit to ‘find’ bodies; only to bury and commemorate them, and do an excellent job. However, their Royal Charter is quite specific as to their role.

The real problem is that whilst the MOD Joint Casualty Compassionate Centre do a difficult job well (and I think in this case they have been let down by others) they are a ‘reactive’ rather than a ‘pro-active’ unit. In other words, they deal with historic casualty cases when they arise but do not have field-search teams like the American JPAC organisation.

And DaveF68…I think you are being far too charitable!!

I think so too. As someone with one relative lost at sea (in a known war grave) and another in a CWGC cemetry whose headstone says ‘Buried near here’, I greatly admire the work that you and others do to give the fallen a proper grave. I do not really understand the MOD’s attitude, unless it is all driven by (a lack of) money.

I wrote to my MP in July to see if I could get some clarification here is the reply I received from Andrew Robathan MP

“I understand that Flt Sgt Copping went missing whilst piloting Kittyhawk ET574 on 28th June 1942. Earlier this year a Kittyhawk aeroplane was found in the Egyptian Sahara desert on the eastern edge of the Great Sand Sea, and subsequent investigations identified it as ET574. Regrettably Flt Sgt Copping was not inside the aircraft. Although it is presently in the El Alamein Museum. It is hoped the the aircraft will be returned eventually to the RAF museum at Hendon.

In June remains were found five kilometres away from the crash site but early indications are that they are not those of Flt Sgt Copping. His family have been traced and advised of these developments, and will continue to be kept updated.
Should the remains of Flt Sgt Copping be found subsequently, in accordance with Ministry of Defence policy in place at the time of his death, he will not be repatriated to the UK. Following the cessation of the Falkland’s conflict, the remains of our fallen servicemen and women who die whilst serving overseas are now routinely repatriated to the UK. However, up until the 1960’s, the policy of successive British Governments had been to bury personnel in the country where they fell. Therefore, if Flt Sgt Copping is eventually found his body will be buried with full military honours in a Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery in Egypt.”

Not sure that I have given anything away, have I?

Wasn’t/isn’t all of that in the public domain – albeit that the discussion about the aircraft as such was ‘pulled’ from this forum?

I am sure the mods will remove my comment(s) if they cause concern and I apologise if I have inadvertently strayed into forbidden territory.

And DaveF68…I think you are being far too charitable!!

In view of the MOD’s previous on recovering the remains of fallen servicemen, it saddens but does not surprise me. I suppose an opposite, more charitable view, might be that they were attempting to distract attention from the remains to enable their quiet recovery.

I might also add that, in my view, it is unfortunate that the RAFM did not visit or recover the reported remains whilst recently there to recover the P40.

Giving something away there Andy!