70 years ago in the channel

If the plan had worked I’m sure the buildings where the enigma machines had been taken from would have been destroyed, set on fire etc. This would have given the Germans one big headache.

Well, I think if the buildings were set on fire the Germans would have to assume that the codes were taken…..unless the whole town was burnt down!

The Germans made some serious mistakes with Enigma but they weren’t that stupid!

It wouldn’t have been that big a headache for the Germans; Enigma is really a concept rather than an individual code. New Enigma ‘rotors’ and ‘tables’ could have been issued (as was done periodically anyway). What is worse; changing your codes or letting the enemy read them?

Interesting that you mention ‘Operation Fortitude’; I am reading that at the moment.

Anyone know of any divers that do any business in the channel?

Surprises me that w/o Dugdales Whirlwind has never been found, despite alighting on the water gently and slowly sinking. OK the props were bent over when he clipped the sea. But w/cmdr McClure saw it all from above and said it was as if ‘A Catamaran was sailing along the surface’ since the furrows left a white wake where the nacalles had ploughed through the sea. It had been a clear day, there had unfortunately been a thin veil of mist over the sea that morning on the 4th of April 1943. crashed around 08:45 am. He was picked up by an ASR launch a few mins afterwards. Did get hold of one diver who had said that at a point 5 miles off Dungeness there could be a lot of ‘Dragnet’ fishing so even if it had been on the surface it would have broken up by now, but since the whirly had a higher Magnesium content to its fuseluge to make the skin a little thicker and obviate the need from as many internal stringers. This structure would have had largely dissolved by now. The wings are fairly heavy peice of kit though.

http://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/2317540/WILLIAMS,%20PERCY%20ARTHUR
My great uncle was killed on this raid aged only 19. I was told they were based at Beauport estate in Hastings before the raid.We used to go there every year as it was a caravan park and a relation had a big static there.I found a 50 cal bullet right outside the caravan in the woods.

The 70th aniversary of the Dieppe raid was a major news item in Canada over the weekend.
CBC news showed a movie clip of the raid (about 1 minute in length) that included clear images of 109’s flying over the beach and an unmistakable camera shot of a Douglas A20 Havoc flying away from the beach.
Regards
Bill

What I cannot understand however is what use would it have been if the Allies had captured the Enigma code machines or code books; don’t you think that the Germans would have noticed?

If the plan had worked I’m sure the buildings where the enigma machines had been taken from would have been destroyed, set on fire etc.
This would have given the Germans one big headache.

1.Do we know a 100% that the Allies have got our machines and codes?
2.Can they crack them?
3.Any messages we send to any of our forces, are they being read?
4.What new code system can we use?
5.How long will it take to put in place?

The Allies did get the machines and all the codes how would they be used?
1.Read all the German messages and act on them?
2.Read all the German messages do nothing to fool the Germans into thinking, nothing was taken.
3.Act on a few message to keep the Germans thinking have they or have they not got them.

Which ever way it went it would be good for the allies, as they were good at deception.
For example Operation Fortitude.

AB910 over Dieppe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCpEAwFmucU

Mark

‘Dieppe Uncovered’

I caught the second half of this; some very interesting documents were shown.

What I cannot understand however is what use would it have been if the Allies had captured the Enigma code machines or code books; don’t you think that the Germans would have noticed?

The trick to capturing Enigma material is to do so in a manner that the Germans would not know and would therefore keep using the codes.

Ian Flemming did plan such an operation using a captured He111, Operation Ruthless, that planned to capture the Enigma codes from a German Weather-Ship. As it happened crucial Enigma information was captured from U-Boats and Weather-Ships; far easier to conceal the loss than snatching it from Dieppe!

That Man Flemming….

Dieppe was many things, but as time goes on, more and more interesting information leaches-out about the background to the operation. It’s often said that without Dieppe, there could have been no Normandy. A lot was learnt, probably about what not to do. Was it really worth the terrible losses…? I’m not sure that history has really decided yet. Was it a trial run, probably partly, but the real underlying reasons are probably all Intelligence-related.
The connection mentioned with Ian Flemming and his unit has come-up in this forum before. The documentary on Yesterday underlines just how involved Flemming was. He had early knowledge of Ultra and ran his own highly specialised units often operating under the cover of another unit.
There is still a lot more to come out for sure, but it must have been important to sacrifice around three thousand men dead and captured…..