787 Update

As per the current schedule boeing wont bump up to the 10/month before they have produced around 112 aircraft which according to most industry people is enough to get a ” hang of ” the process and iron out all the chinks . The current setup can support greater no.s then 10 a month ( i am not allowed to disclose the exact numbers) without any infrastructural addition (although human recources would needed to be added) . Boeing will most likely up the production to 12 a month or maybe even higher ( there are inside talks of 14-16 a month aswell) and a lot of that can be acheived through the current setup (without adding another line) . I personally estimate that boeing would need around 14-16 a month if they want to sustain healthy sales for its 787-10 (when launched) without infringing upon the delivery slots for its 787-8 and 787-9 aircrafts . We wont see any increase in production before 2011 ( optimistic) or 2012(more likely) but one will surely be there . Expect a descision to bump production ( exact boeing statement with factual no.s) to be made right about the time they go in and launch the 787-10 industrially .

The first dozen (maybe more) aircraft will take a little longer until the procedures are tested, evaluated, wrinkles ironed out and process streamlined.

IIRC the first 6 would take about 1 month each to put together , because boeing is doing all the stuffing , wiring , fine tuning , cleaning , smoothing etc on the barrels . The program was all pushed into higher gear in january when some suppliers were late ( Alenia for one) and a descision was taken by boeing and the global team that to keep on track boeing would invest some money and hire folks to stuff these barrels and do all the other time consuming stuff in house until the suppliers caught up .The first barrels form alenia were barely delivered on time , they were so “RAW” that they werent even dusted off and debris removed before shipping them . However boeing can only gauge the true rate of assembly once pre-stufffed barrels start to trickle in and that would be after the 7th aircraft ( thats not the 7 aircraft but 7th production aircraft) , however having said that the current ramp up strategy gives 6 months of catch up time so if something with the schedule goes wrong then boeing has some “Juice” on surplus in the system to catch up by increasing production . The one problem is titanium as long term contracts need to be re-done with the russian suppliers and those things are very tricky (specially with the russians) . There is tremendous pressure now on the suppliers to deliver as airbus is also now in the composite , titanium market (more so then before) and its A350 jet is also expected to sell well. So all in all it might not be economical for boeing to bump up production by a whole lot as renogiated contracts will most likely be more expensive due to increase in demand for things ranging from composites , titanium fastners etc etc etc .

Boeings 3 day final assembly target is an ambitious one. I believe, however, Boeing have earned the right to be taken at their word and trusted to achieve that target.
The first dozen (maybe more) aircraft will take a little longer until the procedures are tested, evaluated, wrinkles ironed out and process streamlined.

But, I think they will achieve a 3 day assembly. They have, after all, completed assembly of the prototype bang on schedule without so much as a days delay. And that from a schedule determined 4 years ago!

Proof Boeing know what they’re doing? Or blind luck?

Some pics before the aircraft officially rolls out

Courtesy – boeing

The 787 production plans have allways been ambitious , but this was known from the get go , and boeing has executed things very well uptil now , the 3-4 days production time wont be there till perhaps after the first 100 or so aircrafts are assembled so boeing would have had quite a bit of expereince in assembling things , plus the partners would have gained expereince aswell . Boeing really wants to launch the 787-10 but cant as of now because they cannot create slots in 2012 timeframe without cutting back on -9 and -8 sales , so they have to push those plans another 1 or 2 years . They could have upped production but are waiting and taking things easy .

Boeing and Build Rates
I feel they are over reaching them selves with their proposed 4 day final assembly times. I

I think Boeing are trying to get a very quick final assembly by having all of the sub assemblys “pre stuffed” ie with all the bits inside fitted and tested. All that will be required is to bolte the big bits together, connect all the plugs and put power on. All the fuselage bits that have been delivered to Seattle in the past come “Bare” and all the kitting out is done during the final assembly.

Rgds Cking

Boeing and Build Rates
While I have to admire Boeing for their success on securing so many 787 orders, I feel they are over reaching them selves with their proposed 4 day final assembly times. A key element of this strategy has been to farm out all the major core technology sub assemblies to third parties. In some ways this is similar to the Airbus approach but with out the single identity, common standards and the assurance of working to a common goal.

That distributed approach is presenting major problems for Airbus…

The components from suppliers are arriving late, are damaged, and often don’t do what they were supposed to. These problems are dogging the A380, and until the suppliers get their fingers out of their ****, Airbus are pretty handicapped.

787 Build Rates and Quality

Boeing and Build Rates
While I have to admire Boeing for their success on securing so many 787 orders, I feel they are over reaching them selves with their proposed 4 day final assembly times. A key element of this strategy has been to farm out all the major core technology sub assemblies to third parties. In some ways this is similar to the Airbus approach but with out the single identity, common standards and the assurance of working to a common goal.

While I accept the weight savings (not as substantial as one may suppose), fatigue life improvement and structural simplification offered by the use of composites. There remains the fact that unlike aluminium composites are incredibly unforgiving of operator error, which in the high intensity and pressure build environment of the 787 line will become a major cause of quality problems. I fear that an appreciable percentage of the fatigue life improvements will be lost on concessions attributable to composite sensitivity. The final delivery of the 787s will also probably delayed by the volume of pre delivery rectification work required prior to customer acceptance.

I will also not be surprised if both Boeing and their suppliers become rather liberal in their interpretation of the H&S challenges presents by this volume of composite work, to the detriment of their employees well being.

A great article by James Wallace Titled How the 787 was Born

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/321719_dreamliner29.html

Boeing Invites the World to View the 787 Premiere

SEATTLE, June 28, 2007 — Boeing [NYSE: BA] will broadcast the Premiere of its newest technologically advanced passenger jet – the 787 Dreamliner – to viewers around the world.

The 787 Premiere will be carried live and in nine different languages on Sunday, July 8, at 3:30 p.m. PDT or 10:30 p.m. GMT via satellite and Webcast. To view the Webcast, viewers may log on to www.boeing.com or www.newairplane.com.

Boeing will broadcast the Premiere to more than 45 countries using 35 satellite TV networks. Satellite television subscribers may tune in the following channels, depending on their satellite service provider: Specific channel or frequency information can be found on the Premiere Web site.

U.S. and Canada
DirecTV satellite 4S/8, Channel 576
Dish Network satellite EchoStar #8, Channel 9601
IntelSat Galaxy 11 K15 Analog
IntelSat Galaxy 11 K20 Digital
Mexico and South America
Satmex 5 K19, Digital 9Mhz
IntelSat Galaxy 11, K20 Digital

Europe and the Middle East
Eutelsat, W2 Digital
Eutelsat Atlantic Bird, AB1F5BE Digital

Asia
AsiaSat Direct-to-Home (DTH) Service
AsiaSat 2 XP 2B, Channel 3 and 4, Digital

South Pacific
Optus, B3 Digital (Eastern Australia and New Zealand)
Intelsat 12 (Western Australia)

The 787 Premiere will be broadcast in Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, and Spanish.

Leading up to the 787 Premiere, Boeing will debut a special series of videos to celebrate its 7-Series family of airplanes – the Boeing 707, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 and 787. The videos, along with fact sheets on each airplane, are historical perspectives of the 7-Series of commercial airplanes, showcasing the wonder and glamour of flight since the 707’s debut in 1958.

Matching airplane model numbers to the dates, Boeing will launch one video per day leading up to the 787 rollout – beginning June 30 with the 707 and continuing through July 8 with the 787. The videos will be available on the 787 Premiere Web site, which can be accessed via Boeing’s Internet home page at www.boeing.com.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q2/070628a_nr.html

It looks awesome. I can’t wait to have a chance to fly on one. I’m more excited about his plane than i am about the A380. I wish more airlines were buying them sooner. Oh well. I can’t help saying how nice it looks. The 787-9 will look better, in my opinion.

fly.Are there any RR engines on the 787 yet or order?

The 787 that you see (LN1/ZA001) in the pics is actually carrying RR trents . The LN2/ZA002 , LN3/ZA003 , LN4/ZA004 will also carry the RR engines . The LN3/ZA005 will be the first to carry the genex engines .

I thought the Trent was going to be the main engine for the 787 – I’d been told its 3 shaft config is a major advantage in a bleedless design. (Mind you, that was the head of Rolls Royce R&D saying that, so he may have a biased view

Both the trent and the genex are the 2 main engine options for the 787 dreamliner . According to boeing both engines are meeting what they set out as engine requirment for the 787 so lets see which performs better . They should be quite close and most of the little Sfc difference would be taken care by discounting the lesser eff. engine . Although not sure but i think GE is leading RR interms of engine orders for the 787 but i could be wrong .

EDIT – Dont have latest numbers but as far as the first 410 aircraft are concerned GE had 275 orders while RR had 135 .

Also courtesy flight blogger –

The 787 is looking good there cant wait to see it fly.Are there any RR engines on the 787 yet or order?

James

Pardon?

I thought the Trent was going to be the main engine for the 787 – I’d been told its 3 shaft config is a major advantage in a bleedless design. (Mind you, that was the head of Rolls Royce R&D saying that, so he may have a biased view :diablo: )

edit: The trent is the launch engine, and will definitely fly with the launch customer ANA – http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40302

The 787 is looking good there cant wait to see it fly.Are there any RR engines on the 787 yet or order?

James

I have more links , PDF’s and stuff scanned in but those are at my dayton office , i will be going back home maybe on the 9th of july so i can upload some stuff from there aswell . There is obviously not much talk about this in the media because it is quite intense for most media outlets to publish . Boeing has been working with the airlines for 4-5 years now and so have the partners , they have long expereince with composite from its usage in other projects and the maintaince issue was a FUNDAMENTAL CONCERN going into the 787 so a sollution and one that is universaly accepted by the airlines had to have been found before boeing and partners went in with 10 billion dollars !

I also found this on my hard drive , definately worth a read –

http://files-upload.com/327394/We.4.1.4.pdf.html

Yes, thats much more interesting.

If all that indeed works as stated – then many of the problems I feared would beset the 787 (and A350) would appear to be solved. 🙂

I also found this on my hard drive , definately worth a read –

http://files-upload.com/327394/We.4.1.4.pdf.html

The B787 is neither revolutionary, nor does it mark the onset of a new aviation age.

I disagree.

Its the first commerical aircraft to use all composite wings – with major improvements in the viable t/c ratios as a result – this is what results in alot of its much improved aerodynamic efficiency.

The use of composites for the fuselage is largely a non-issue – it doesn’t add to much to the party in comparison to the wings.

BTW, Rolls-Royce have stated bleedless engines are the future – they reduce fuel consumption on descent/stacking/approach by something stupid like 50%! [all as a result of not needing to keep the engines spooled up so high to provide air for the cabin and systems]

… It’s simply hubris…the “my d**k is bigger than your d**k”! :rolleyes:
:

You’d better start sleeping with your hands above the covers then!!

and that is not something the FAA or JAA will be at all comfortable with.

Lets see how te 787 does in the FAA,JAA testing , the results should be out in the comming 8-10 months . Everyone at boeing isnt worried one bit about the issue . Had a talk with someone very high up just before he left for le bourget , and he gave me many concerns that he had going forward but none were with the maintaince issues . Also we have have airlines like EK comming out that they expect the 787 to be 30% cheaper to maintain then the 767 it is designed to replace . I dont recall any airline that is worried or has publically come out and said it and despite it the 787 is sold out till nearly 2014 ! These concerns have probably been dealt with to the satisfaction of the customers . Now we can doubt but the people writing billion dollar checks clearly are ready to wager there expansion plans on the aircraft.

I have some on my work laptop , but right at the top of my head try this one –

http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2005/May/854/1

Also go over this website it could have other interesting articles.

Just one paragraph in:

Technicians inspect components visually for surface defects, such as pinholes, erosion or small cracks. Coin tap tests can uncover potential delaminations. Ultrasonic and other nondestructive inspection (NDI) equipment further investigate suspicious areas. Sometimes the most efficient and cost-effective means for correcting damage is to replace large sections or even entire facesheets,

The bit underlined I’m very dubious about – its an extremely subjective test – and that is not something the FAA or JAA will be at all comfortable with.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/19/18466/00850382.pdf?arnumber=850382

What the bit in bold implies:

For every dint from a baggage cart, from a fuel truck, from a tug…

The aircraft will have to be taken into the hanger, given the gel coating and ultrasounded to check for delamination of the fuselage (or whatever was hit).

Compare this to a traditional aluminium design – a dent might be formed, its position can be checked relative to any ribs and stringers, and from its deformation, it can be determined whether there is any deformation to the underlying structure. Any cracks can easily be measured (visually) and if they are under the figures used for critical crack growth checkups – the plane can be cleared to take-off.