8 Squadron Shackleton The 'Magic Roundabout' and 'The Herb's Characters'

I’ve just removed my earlier deleted “Tinypic” images, and inserted two new colour photos of WL793 into this thread.  These seem to confirm that WL793 had become “Dylan” by 1976, replacing the earlier “Ermintrude” cartoon.

My father, Bill Houldsworth was on 8 SQn from May 1972 until Jun 1976. I remember on visiting the hangars at Lossie in the very early days of the Squadron move from Kinloss to Lossie, that the Magic Roundabout Characters were vinyl stickers about 2ft across stuck about 3 feet below the pilot’s window.  They were the sort of sticker that first-time parents would use to decorate a cot or nursery furniture and I had seen them in some local shops. I remember wondering at the time how well the adhesive would hold bombing along at a couple of hundred knots… Hope this helps?

Hi, Does anyone have any photos or info on WL745 otherwise known as “Sage” I have the control yoke from this aircraft, these photos were taken when it was decomissioned from the RAF, when the yoke was removed. I have not seen any photos of the “Sage” artwork that was applied on the nose online or in any books that I have.

As you can see from the photos there was also a Vulcan and Victor meeting a simular fate to WL745.

Speaking of Shackletons…

Its 25 years since the RAF retired the AEW.2s

Tim

WL741 at Manston 1986: I just wish I’d taken a photo of the other side…

[ATTACH=CONFIG]245291[/ATTACH]

Here is a picture of WL787 basking in the heat at Sharjah in the early 1970’s
[ATTACH=CONFIG]245290[/ATTACH]

Martyn

GYD

The only picture I have of WL787 is this one when she was on strength with 38 Sqdn. The photo was taken by my Grandfather who also crewed WL787, which later became “Mr MacHenry” and even later “Dylan”. Sorry I don’t have any pictures of her any later than this.

img019_zps031023d1 by Darren Greenwood, on Flickr

Looks like Dylan to me, but it’s a long time since I watched Magic Roundabout!

Looks like Dylan to me, but it’s a long time since I watched Magic Roundabout!

The nearest ‘fit’ seems to be “Dylan”, which confirms at least one post above.

The nearest ‘fit’ seems to be “Dylan”, which confirms at least one post above.

As you were, and ignore everything I’ve just said about Shackleton WL793! I remembered taking a Kodachrome 64 colour slide around the same time as the b&w pics, so I went looking for it after posting the above. The colour slide is of WL793 at Newcastle, although I have dated it two days earlier, the 5th April 1976. I now think that that date also applies to the b&w photos of WL793, and that WL756 turned up two days later, on the 7th. So here is the colour photo, which is quite distinct; [/url]WL793, 8 Sqdn, Newcastle, 5 April 76 (4) by Philip Pain, on Flickr” />  And here is the whole aircraft [/url]WL793, 8 Sqdn, Newcastle, 5 April 76 (4) by Philip Pain, on Flickr” />Excuse me while I now go all the way back through this thread, to see who it actually is!

As you were, and ignore everything I’ve just said about Shackleton WL793! I remembered taking a Kodachrome 64 colour slide around the same time as the b&w pics, so I went looking for it after posting the above. The colour slide is of WL793 at Newcastle, although I have dated it two days earlier, the 5th April 1976. I now think that that date also applies to the b&w photos of WL793, and that WL756 turned up two days later, on the 7th. So here is the colour photo, which is quite distinct; [/url]WL793, 8 Sqdn, Newcastle, 5 April 76 (4) by Philip Pain, on Flickr” />  And here is the whole aircraft [/url]WL793, 8 Sqdn, Newcastle, 5 April 76 (4) by Philip Pain, on Flickr” />Excuse me while I now go all the way back through this thread, to see who it actually is!

Oh dear! I’ve just been scanning and cleaning some 35 mm photos that I took at Newcastle Airport on 7th April 1976, and thought that I would ‘google’ to check the correct names for the cartoon characters on the noses of the two Shackletons. But rather than finding the ‘answers’, I found a minefield! So here goes, anyway; The two 8 Sqdn Shacks had arrived to do some local flights for the RAF Boulmer radar personnel. WL793 parked on the nearest stand to the airport roof viewing terrace, but WL756 was three stands away. I took quite a few photos of both sides of the aircraft as they came and went, and the cartoons were on the port side only, with nothing at all on the starboard sides. 

Oh dear! I’ve just been scanning and cleaning some 35 mm photos that I took at Newcastle Airport on 7th April 1976, and thought that I would ‘google’ to check the correct names for the cartoon characters on the noses of the two Shackletons. But rather than finding the ‘answers’, I found a minefield! So here goes, anyway; The two 8 Sqdn Shacks had arrived to do some local flights for the RAF Boulmer radar personnel. WL793 parked on the nearest stand to the airport roof viewing terrace, but WL756 was three stands away. I took quite a few photos of both sides of the aircraft as they came and went, and the cartoons were on the port side only, with nothing at all on the starboard sides. 

Magic Roundabout & Herbs names used by 8 squadron Shackletons

OK here’s a table that attempts to summarise the allocation of names and nose art to 8 squadron Shackletons according to the published wisdom together with the evidence presented in this thread (for which I am particularly indebted to pagen01, richw_82 and Camlobe). If you know better please join the debate! The order of naming is largely based on the arrival dates at Kinloss. The nose art may have come later (or not at all).

In approximate order of naming

• WL787: Arrived Kinloss 19.11.71, named Mr McHenry, damaged 25.01.73 (name given to 90) on return from repairs 15.05.73 named Dylan SoC 03.01.74 (name given to 65?)
• WR967: Arrived Kinloss 23.11.71, named Zebedee c10.05.72, grounded 07.09.72 (name to WL738?) became Dodo

• WL747: Arrived Kinloss 11.04.72, named Florence. Overhaul 9.78-11.79 still Florence – nose art removed 82. Continued to be known as Florence. SoC 1.7.91
• WL756: Arrived Kinloss 21.06.72, named Mr Rusty. Overhaul 3.79-80 new nose art – looks like Snoopy!! Nose art removed 82. Continued to be known as Mr Rusty. SoC 1.7.91
• WR960: Arrived Kinloss 21.06.72, named Dougal. Overhaul 3.78-3.79 still Dougal – nose art removed by 29.5.82 SoC 11.82. Nose art re-applied in preservation
• WR963: Arrived Kinloss 01.08.72, named Ermintrude. Renamed Parsley c8.73. Overhaul 3.76-5.77 renamed Ermintrude – nose art removed 82. Continued to be known as Ermintrude. Written Ermintrude applied 6.91. SoC 1.7.91
• WL757: Arrived Kinloss 29.08.72, named Brian. Overhaul 10.79-81. Nose art removed by mid 82. Continued to be known as Brian. SoC 1.7.91
• WL795: Arrived Kinloss 28.10.72, named Rosalie. No nose art by 75, renamed c77 Zebedee. SoC 81 & to St Mawgan 24.11.81 with nose art (name to 90?)
• WL754: Arrived Kinloss 29.11.72, named Paul SoC 1.81 flown to Valley 22.01.81 (with nose art)
• WL790: Arrived Kinloss 20.09.72, named Mr McHenry. Named after trials in 73. Overhaul 1980-7/81 became known as Zebedee c12/81 (nose art?). Nose art removed by mid 82. Continued to be known as Zebedee (& Mr McHenry by some). Written Mr McHenry applied 6.91. SoC 1.7.91
• WR965: Arrived Kinloss 31.01.73, named Dill Refurbished 4.74-4.75 became Dylan? Overhaul 9.76-10.77 renamed Rosalie. Nose art removed by mid 82. Continued to be known as Rosalie. Crashed 30.4.90
• WL793: Arrived Kinloss 23.02.73, named Ermintrude c8.73. Overhaul 4.77-3.78 renamed Dylan?? SoC 5.81 to Lossiemouth dump
• WL741: Arrived Kinloss 04.04.73, named PC Knapweed. Renamed Basil by 9/75 SoC early 81 flown to Manston 29.05.81 with nose art
• WL745: Arrived Kinloss 17.09.73, named Sage. Nose art removed by 1975 overhaul 10.77-9.78 SoC 81 flown to Catterick 13.07.81 (no nose art)

• WL738: Arrived Kinloss 8.3.74, referred to as Zebedee (art work?). SoC 14.10.77. name given to 95
• WL801: Arrived Kinloss 15.8.74, No nose art (or name?) SoC 11.6.79
• WG556: Arrived Kinloss 5.5.77, No nose art (or name?) Grounded 1980

Red: Some photographic evidence of nose art available

Dated photos from 1972-82 showing nose art are:
• 41:
(No nose art at Kinloss in 1973)
PC Knapweed: no photos
Basil: 9.75, 5.78, 7.79, 1980, 1981+
• 45:
Sage: no photos
(no nose art in 1975, 8.77, 1981+)
• 47:
Florence: 9.76, 9.80
• 54:
Paul: 10.74, 1981+
• 56:
Mr Rusty: undated photo only
‘Snoopy’: 7.80, 9.81
• 57:
Brian: 9.73
• 90:
Mr McHenry: undated photos only
• 93:
Ermintrude: no photos
Dylan(?): undated photo only
• 95;
Rosalie: no photos
(no nose art in 1975, 4.76)
Zebedee: 7.77, 8.77 6.81 1981+
• 60:
Dougal : 9.74, 6.79, 9.79, 7.80
(no nose art 29.5.82)
• 63:
Parsley: Undated photo only(?)
Ermintrude: 6.79
• 65:
Dill: no photos
Dylan(?): 9.75?
Rosalie: 6.79, 6.81

There are links to most of these photographs in this thread.

Clearly the true picture is more complicated than previously published lists. The first 8 squadron Shackletons to receive names were the trainers WL787 and WR967 which arrived at Kinloss in November 1971. They must have received names by the end of 1972 at the latest because they were grounded 25.1.73 and 7.9.72 respectively. (787 was eventually repaired). The AEWs were named pretty much as they arrived during 1972, taking the more prominent Magic Roundabout names first. WL790 was named rather later than its arrival date because it was soon sent to Pershore for trials. It was named in 1973 taking Mr McHenry from 787 which had been grounded. When 787 returned in 1973 it took the name Dylan and for some reason when WL793 arrived it received the name Ermintrude necessitating a change of name for WR963 which became Parsley. Since we know that the a/c were referred to by name whether or not they had cartoons applied it is possible that the nose art came later. The other three AEWs to arrive in 1973 were apparently given Herb names but so far we have no photographic evidence of any nose art. WR965 Dill could well have become Dylan when 787 was grounded for the second time in 1974, WL741 had become Basil (with nose art) by 1975 and WL745 had no nose art at all by 1975. After that names were swapped around as a/c were withdrawn or departed on protracted overhaul, Magic Roundabout names always given preference over Herbs.
There are still lots of questions to be answered of course. More photographs of the art work are still needed and an explanation of the ‘Snoopy’ like character carried by 56 in 1980-81. Also, can anyone supply evidence of the written names applied to the other survivors in June 1991 (47, 56 & 57)?

BTW the Ermintrude that you have shown above is the ‘modern’ one and is misleading, refer back to the earlier pics.

Ok I admit it. I got the wrong Ermintrude puppet! WL793 must be Dylan!
On a more positive note I’ve found a few more photos;
Two photos of WL741 showing Basil:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnoram/4820649943/in/set-72157624440203307
http://www.flickr.com/photos/egbj/5437254476/
I think this is the same art work as on photos dated 1975 (Leuchars) and 1980 (St Mawgan)
A photo of WL745 showing no art work in 1977:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/312049.html
Two photos of WL795 showing no art work in 1976 and Zebedee in 1977
http://home.tiscali.nl/sberg.sixties/SBApr76.htm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/toteavbods-pictures/3727617832/in/photostream

Interesting theory Scotty but doesn’t make much sense as the cartoons were dropped in 1981, at pretty well the same time as the Shackleton fleet was halved anyway.

There were twelve aircraft, and eleven ‘Magic Roundabout’ characters used so that only left one character to find. On top of that, some of the AEWs didn’t carry cartoons for some periods between ’72 – ’81 anyway, there are a few pictures of WL757 (‘Brian’ c.1973) and WL795 (Zebedee late ’70s) andwithout any.

I can understand why the cartoons weren’t always worn, and that they swapped around the different a/c, when you consider the maintenance and respar down times of individual airframes.

My impression was that the ‘Herbs’ were applied initially (but how many?), and that pretty soon after the ‘Magic Roundabout’ cartoons were used.
I think you are right about the ‘Herbs’ cartoons used, but it seems that WR965 wore ‘Dill’ (Herbs) and ‘Dylan’ (‘Roundabout)

I don’t know when the pictures that Jon posted were taken, I wonder if ‘Sage’ made up the shortfall of ‘Magic Roundabout’ cartoons in that time frame?

To be honest, without really good quality and dated pictures, and insights like Camlobes’, we are on a magic roundabout ourselves!

I was under the impression that at one time WL741 was PC Knapweed, WL745 was Sage, and WR965 was Dill (not Dylan) but I may be wrong. The only other character used from the Herbs was Parsley (WR963)

http://theherbs.homestead.com/Characters.html

Perhaps some of the confusion and swapping came about as there were more Shacks pre-1981 than Magic Roundabout Characters (not forgetting the MR.2’s) so Herbs characters were used. Post 1981, after the squadron strength was halved, all of a sudden there were enough Magic Roundabout Characters, so a shuffle was undertaken – just in time for a certain CO to stop the practice in 1982-ish. Was it Sqn Ldr Greenway that was the CO that disapproved?

Just a thought!
Kind Regards,
Scotty

Sorry Jon, but that absolutely is ‘Ermintrude’ depicted in that picture (as well as two other pictures that I have) of WR963.
I think you are reading too much into it, only Emintrudes’ head is depicted, not her whole body and legs etc.

Forgive the fag packet sketch again, but this is what I believe is on WR963…

Ermintrude small by jamtey71, on Flickr

The ‘Parsley’ on WR963 looks right to me, and both sets of pics would confirm WR963s established listed characters as ‘Parsley’ and ‘Ermintrude’.

BTW the Ermintrude that you have shown above is the ‘modern’ one and is misleading, refer back to the earlier pics.

You say hat and ‘horns’ on WL793, could these be a hat and ears of Dylan?

I can’t see in enough detail the pic of WL741 you have posted above, strangely I have my own shot on colour slide of ‘741 which looks indentical to this image, I will try and decipher it when I can view it properly sometime.

I think half the problem here is being able to clearly work out what the ‘toons were.
Somewhere out there someone must have got good clear shots of the nose art, they were so unusual at that time.