9/11/01 – 5 Years On

I suppose you have a point….

I guess something like the feet thing just sounds so odd to me that it’s hard to comprehend how it could offend anyone.

Take heart in the fact that while I might not like the Arabic Muslim culture, I will respect it enough to do as told when I get sent overseas, as indeed I am representative of my country and I should do anything and everything to help our image.

I don’t think the opinion over there will ever change in favor of the United States, but I suppose there’s no point in me helping to make it even more negative….

Well said! and that isnt being patronising! just know that one person can make a difference..

Said it before ….” life’s a dance you live as you go…sometimes you lead sometimes you follow “…lead on that man 😀

Phantom II; their attitudes will change if people make the effort to try to empathise with them. Yes its a long ride, and you won’t get everyone on board but if you can get one average arab/mulslim in the street to ‘like’ you as an American and an individual, you will have done your bit. And who knows you might even make a friend!

I don’t remember who said this but ‘look after you friends and your friends will look after you, look after your enimies and they will be friends tomorrow.’ It might not work with some extremists, but certainly works on nordinary people.

Also remember life is a journey, and that as you grow older and build up experience so you will find your attitudes will change, and one day I hope you will understand that little things like the ‘feet’ do matter to people – even if you can’t see the reason or the point.

Steve.

I suppose you have a point….

I guess something like the feet thing just sounds so odd to me that it’s hard to comprehend how it could offend anyone.

Take heart in the fact that while I might not like the Arabic Muslim culture, I will respect it enough to do as told when I get sent overseas, as indeed I am representative of my country and I should do anything and everything to help our image.

I don’t think the opinion over there will ever change in favor of the United States, but I suppose there’s no point in me helping to make it even more negative….

My point is that I don’t understand why a small thing like that should be offensive.

I don’t mind what people do when they come here…as long as they aren’t burning the flag then as far as I’m concerned, they are free to do what they please.

I’m in no position to tell them what they should and should not do.

To them it is worse than burning the flag, it is an offence to their god and their beliefs.

To be a ” Devil’s advocate ” a flag is after all just a bit of coloured cloth hanging on a stick so wheres the harm in burning it ?? and no that is not my attitude at all..i would be seriously offended to see the flag of my nation burnt. But do you understand what i mean?… its a question of perspective!!!

I dont know, and its no one’s business other than yours,if you are a christian but imagine how it would feel to a see the bible burnt or torn into pieces and thrown into the street..

Other peoples have different cultures and they have the right to expect those cultures, traditions and beliefs to be respected.

My point is that I don’t understand why a small thing like that should be offensive.

I don’t mind what people do when they come here…as long as they aren’t burning the flag then as far as I’m concerned, they are free to do what they please.

I’m in no position to tell them what they should and should not do.

originally posted by Phantom II;

[QUOTE]On the subject of the feet, I guess I’ll just have to be insensitive because unless a superior officer or enlisted person who’s part of the flight crew tells me to put my feet in the helicopter then I’m gonna hang them out if I feel like it…..

Personally I could expend all the effort that’s possible to expend on not offending Muslims over there, and I can promise you they still wouldn’t like me for reasons I’ve stated before.

and then people are surprised that America isnt welcomed with open arms all over the world???

so whats the point? whats the point of doing anything if the individual cant make a difference to the course of life or history for that matter?

I must remember to mention this the next time someone is offended by the actions of foreign visitors to their country..after whats good enough for Americans in Iraq must be good enough for Chinese or Mexicans or Iranians in Main street USA….

The pysch exam I went through was part of my pilot’s Flying Class I physical examination. It had nothing to do with me going overseas. I won’t likely be deploying overseas anytime soon as I’ve yet to go through undergraduate pilot training yet. I’m currently assigned to a base awaiting for my class start date. I’ve only been on active duty since June, and there’s a million things I don’t know about. I’m the last person you should ask about the USAF does things and how you get prepared to overseas and the like.

On the subject of the feet, I guess I’ll just have to be insensitive because unless a superior officer or enlisted person who’s part of the flight crew tells me to put my feet in the helicopter then I’m gonna hang them out if I feel like it…..

Personally I could expend all the effort that’s possible to expend on not offending Muslims over there, and I can promise you they still wouldn’t like me for reasons I’ve stated before. So again, I ask why does it matter? Nothing I ever do will change their opinion of me.

The same goes for Europeans….I am who I am, and you guys don’t like it……why does it matter? Your opinion will be whatever it is of me or my country regardless of what I do so why should I care? I’m not in the habit of doing things to make other people like me or to please them…….if they don’t like me then that’s fine with me. I won’t be offended in any form or fashion. We need not have personal contact anyway so once again I don’t think it should matter.

The individuals inside the chopper might not have cared, but as long as I’ve been in the military (USAF) we have given people a good deal of customs and courtesies information as part of their predeployment briefing before they leave to go overseas on a deployment. Maybe the Army does things differently?

originally posted by Phantom II;

I’m done with the officer candidate stuff. I’m a 2nd Lt. in the USAF.

In any case yes, they have done a psychological examination on me, but it’s more along the lines or preparing you for the fact that you may encounter death and destruction.

With that being said let me make it clear I would never attack an innocent person or degrade/humiliate them in anyway.

I presume ” humiliate ” is said is the same breath as ” offend” ?

Bearing in mind the thing with the feet….Maybe Phantom II can advise if the USAF are still giving this info to those about to leave?

Feet dangling out of a chopper??

They got offended by that??

What is it that doesn’t offend them, I’d much like to know…….

That’s so trivial…..

Think Megalith has answered this pretty well;

PS. On the subject of ‘dangley feet,’ in many cultures picking your nose in public, isn’t considered to be a faux-pas and such peoples can’t understand why we find it affensive. Then of course in many tribal cultures the women go topless, now thats something that both many Christians and Muslims would find hightly offensive. So at the end of the day please remember such things depended upon culural perspective, and when in Rome do as the Romans.

To give another example in some cultures it is offensive to leave any food on a plate after a meal, in others it is offensive not to….

and with thanks to http://www.windowontheworldinc.com/countryprofile/turkey.html

“Body Language

“Yes” is a slight downward nod of the head. “No” is a slight upward nod of the head while making a quick, sucking sound through your two front teeth (like “tsk”).
Turks generally have a small area of personal space and may stand closer than most foreigners are used to.
Never point the sole of your foot toward a person.
Turks, most of whom are devout Muslims, may avoid looking into your eyes in a display of humble behavior.
Do not stand with your hands on your hips when talking to others, especially older people or superiors, or put your hands in your pockets.
In Turkey, putting your thumb between your first two fingers is the equivalent to raising your middle finger in the United States.
The “O.K.” sign in Turkey means that someone is homosexual “

It might be trivial to you but it isnt too others….What right do you have ,as a visitor and as previously stated an Ambassador (for your Country, Armed Forces and YOUR culture )to ignore the sensibilities of other far older cultures?

Where, here? There’s an Army Reserve detachment here that runs some sort of small armory facility, but that’s about it. US Army guys tend to be a little worthless when it comes to maintaining and operating fast jets 😀

Well they could be handy for peeling spuds !!! ( sorry Potatoes! )

or for that matter fighting off those pesky Ruskie paratroopers!!!! 😀

Muslims getting offended by someone’s feet dangling on the side? How do you think Special op soldiers operate out of choppers in Muslim nations?
Are you sure it’s a not a Somalian custom they went against? Religion and Culture are two different aspects of a society, even if it’s a Muslim one.

Not sure how SO troops operate in Muslim nations but they certainly didnt go around dangling their feet ( or any other bits!) out the side in Northern Ireland!!!! And i dont think it happened too often in Vietnam ?

It may well be a particular offence in Somalia but according to the following it appears not to be a good idea in general;

http://www.msc.navy.mil/msccent/taboos.htm

http://www.propertyfrontiers.com/countries/dubai/travel.html

http://www.arofish.org.uk/arofish/album04

Phantom II; you ask ‘I apply the same thing to the Arabic Muslims in question. Why should I ever care what they think about me?’

Simply if you go to the middle east for what ever reason you will be effectivelly acting as a kind of an ‘ambasador’ for western culture, and will help to affect the attitudes of the population to the West. Create a good impression and you will help to defuse what Jack Straw this norning called a ‘dire situation,’ a bad impression will only exasperate the conflict.

The same goes for why you should care what the other forumites think of you; because with growing anti-Americanism in Europe, a positive impression from you can only improve America’s image over here.

I know you may well feel that you are only one person and that the impact you have upon our attitudes may be inconsequential; but if you impress say six of us – that’s a goog thing right? Now if a million other US citizens do the same that’s six million of us influenced to be more sympathetic to the USA. Its called people power.

Steve.

PS. On the subject of ‘dangley feet,’ in many cultures picking your nose in public, isn’t considered to be a faux-pas and such peoples can’t understand why we find it affensive. Then of course in many tribal cultures the women go topless, now thats something that both many Christians and Muslims would find hightly offensive. So at the end of the day please remember such things depended upon culural perspective, and when in Rome do as the Romans.

Try displaying the upraised open palm of a hand to a Greek and see what sort of reaction you get!

And, whatever you do, never point your feet at a Thai. 😮

Which just goes to show, really……… 😉

Muslims getting offended by someone’s feet dangling on the side? How do you think Special op soldiers operate out of choppers in Muslim nations?
Are you sure it’s a not a Somalian custom they went against? Religion and Culture are two different aspects of a society, even if it’s a Muslim one.

Feet dangling out of a chopper??

They got offended by that??

You’re not supposed to display the soles of your feet in Islam, especially if they’re “aimed” at somebody else. I thought that only applied to the actual soles of your feet, but I guess it applies to the bottoms of your shoes as well.

Any army bods out there???

Where, here? There’s an Army Reserve detachment here that runs some sort of small armory facility, but that’s about it. US Army guys tend to be a little worthless when it comes to maintaining and operating fast jets 😀

Feet dangling out of a chopper??

They got offended by that??

What is it that doesn’t offend them, I’d much like to know…….

That’s so trivial…..

The individuals inside the chopper might not have cared, but as long as I’ve been in the military (USAF) we have given people a good deal of customs and courtesies information as part of their predeployment briefing before they leave to go overseas on a deployment. Maybe the Army does things differently?

Any army bods out there???

It did cause a problem in Somalia and there wasnt much knowledge of local sensitivities or customs at that time …hope things have changed for the better !

oh…and it was ” choppers ” rather than ” chopper “…This was going on for most if not all the time during the American presence there.

Somalia…American Choppers flying over with soldiers dangling their feet over the side…..This is highly offensive to Muslims…Why didnt someone know this ?….because no one cared!!

The individuals inside the chopper might not have cared, but as long as I’ve been in the military (USAF) we have given people a good deal of customs and courtesies information as part of their predeployment briefing before they leave to go overseas on a deployment. Maybe the Army does things differently?

[QUOTE]I apply the same thing to the Arabic Muslims in question. Why should I ever care what they think about me? I don’t forsee most of them warming up to me anytime soon and it’s because I do not practice the Islamic faith primarily, and also partly because I’m not Arabic myself. I’m just as guilty I suppose though because I don’t want to get to know any of them. I figure if I keep my distance then it shouldn’t matter what my opinion is or their opinion is. I know it sounds simplistic, and maybe it is, but at the end of the day am I any worse off for not getting to know a Muslim? I don’t really think so. I think they would feel the same about getting to know me. Why should they care what I think of them? The answer is they shouldn’t.

Dont beleive all you read or see on TV..most Muslims DONT have a problem with people of other faiths.

By getting to know a people and their culture maybe it might give you an insight into what you are getting yourself into…It might actually help you handle a situation in Iraq…

Simple example…Somalia…American Choppers flying over with soldiers dangling their feet over the side…..This is highly offensive to Muslims…Why didnt someone know this ?….because no one cared!!

Would you be happier if we pretended that we don’t care, PhantomII? :rolleyes:

Now…… back on-topic, please. Myself included! 😮

GA