A case for ultra small 'carriers'..?

Where are you getting this about Osprey as a support jammer for a fastjet strike package?

Logical conclusion- I know I’d at least try to make a system like this. Sure there is a speed difference but given that the Osprey can change flight modes think of what it can mimmick- Charter turbo prop flights, SAR helo on station, news chopper- the point I am making here is that on radar, it fits the profile (sorta like a B-52 flying a Civilian 747 route- on radar who can tell the difference)?

Where did you hear that TOSS was going to demand a pressurised cabin for V-22. It was my understanding that the whole concept of TOSS is that its a rapid-fit pallet to a stock V-22 for organic ISTAR support as and when required. Hardly tracks with having specialised airframes?.

I hadn’t heard that the TOSS was going to be a “Quick fit”, I had however heard that this was being proposed as part of a package to find a replacement for the Hawkeye and Greyhounds as well as the Viking (in both Tanker Support and Fixed Wing ASW roles). Given that the Hawkeyes need to be pressurised due to the height that they fly at, my assumption came as logic (remember the Hawkeye equation- Height equals distance, logice dictates that the same equation would apply to the TOSS system)!

How many EV-22 would be needed on a carrier for 24/7 ops, taking into account the Osprey struggles to achieve 60% mission capable rate?

Given that this is a new type of system and that it is still being refined this is actually a very high missions rate success, the nextgen of V-22, the V-X will be far superior when it comes because we’d have a better understanding of how the system works- Look at the Bell P-59 Airacomet, how bad a performance did it have- compare that now with Jets today and you see what I mean, give technology time to mature and then things work!

As for how many would be needed, depends on size of the carrier and operational profile! France are doing it with three E-2C’s.

The main thing I wish to point out here is that my EV-22 is a theoretical, but logical adaption for a small carrier such as what is being proposed here in this thread.

Merchant ‘carrier’ conversion studies were carried out in the US and in the UK. The British program was called SCADS and the US had their ARAPAHO concept.

This is not actually a new idea- During WW2 Merchant vessels were converted into emergency carriers called Merchant Aircraft Carrier (MAC) ships. The British converted 19 vessels to this standard.

DTI has an article about the Italian Cavour. Page 19.
http://www.zinio.com/express3?issue=301898271

Conveyor was fitted with a reinforced pad on the bows for VTOL ops for the Harriers. She was never fitted with a ski jump. The pic below shows the pad with the white spot marked forward of the ‘deck park’.

(image)

Merchant ‘carrier’ conversion studies were carried out in the US and in the UK. The British programe was called SCADS and the US had their ARAPAHO concept.

(image)
SCADS

So basicly its possible as long as you have the containerised equipment prepared and know which ships are suitable for conversion. The actual wiki page i was looking at was for Atlantic Conveyers sistership the Atlantic Causeway.

Atlantic Causeway put into HMNB Devonport and was taken in hand on 6 May. She was converted to be able to carry and operate helicopters, and was also fitted with a ski jump to enable her to operate Sea Harriers.[1] A hangar was fitted to her upper deck, and an improved system for delivering aviation fuel. She sailed from Devonport on 14 May carrying eight Sea King HAS.2As of 825 Naval Air Squadron and twenty Wessex HU.5s of 847 Naval Air Squadron.[2] She sailed to the Exclusion Zone via Ascension Island, arriving on 27 May, two days after her sister, Atlantic Conveyor had been hit and burnt out by Exocet missiles.[3] She then disembarked her aircraft and stores in San Carlos Water from 30 May, remaining on station with the rest of the British fleet.

Conveyor was fitted with a reinforced pad on the bows for VTOL ops for the Harriers. She was never fitted with a ski jump. The pic below shows the pad with the white spot marked forward of the ‘deck park’.

Merchant ‘carrier’ conversion studies were carried out in the US and in the UK. The British programe was called SCADS and the US had their ARAPAHO concept.

SCADS

I was just looking around wikipedia and saw that it claimed the altantic conveyer and her sistership were fitted with ski jumps during the falklands war. I just had a look at a photo of the conveyer and it “could” be true, however their is a mast sticking up in just in front of the centre of the “ski jump”.

Simply out of curiosity would a rapid merchant conversion of a RO-RO vessel alon the lines of those two be able to be used as a makeshift carrier for either Harriers or JSF in a combat situation assuming that the mast blocking the ski jump was removed?

I think operational experience with the Royal Navy has been set at a ‘minimum’ of 3 x SeaKing AEW’s (One operating, one in reserve, and one down for maintenance!)

So I think that this number would be no different with the proposed EV-22 AEW

Regards
Pioneer

How many EV-22 would be needed on a carrier for 24/7 ops, taking into account the Osprey struggles to achieve 60% mission capable rate? And even though there is talk about re-engining the V-22 with GE38 incl new generators, right now the Osprey wouldn’t have electric power to operate an AEW radar.

We had a AEW-Osprey threat a while back, right?

Ja,

Where are you getting this about Osprey as a support jammer for a fastjet strike package?. As a support platform to a vertical envelopment assault force embarked in other Ospreys and chopper gunships yes I can see that. V-22 is cruising at what 250-300knts though. The fastjets are going to be there and gone by the time their EW support is halfway to target!.

Where did you hear that TOSS was going to demand a pressurised cabin for V-22. It was my understanding that the whole concept of TOSS (never expected to write that with a straight face!) is that its a rapid-fit pallet to a stock V-22 for organic ISTAR support as and when required. Hardly tracks with having specialised airframes?.

People in the loop no longer absolutely need to be in the airframe. IMHO having the full strike planning cell aboard the command ship in place to view and evaluate realtime intel as its gathered from your ISTAR asset is much more valuable than a couple of ops in a modest-sized airframe downlinking interpretations of the same feed.

Jonsey: Mate I was talking about the flight characteristics in performance. And the addition of the Searchwater system would actually incure a pressurised cabin then becoming standard. Heck the only reason the current cabin configuration is non pressurised is because they use them mainly for rapid troop deployment- much the same as the CH-46 was used.

While the Merlin does have the bigger cabin area, the time on station does seem to be the critical factor here. Add to this the- as mentioned addition of ECM and Jamming gear for strike support and the Merlin’s performance then becomes useless (Helo’s can not match the fast flight performance of combat jets, and any ideas of launching a helo before you send in the strike element is just plan ludicrous- makes for it being a target above everything else and also gives warning of an impending strike if people know what to look for).

The UAV idea is fundamently a better solution but as we know, people in the loop is better in a strike situation for the simple reason that if anything goes wrong, we can fix it enroute or even call off the strike.

The AEW Merlin is the other option for the RN but if you weigh up performance factors of Merlin over Osprey, the V-22 comes out the major winner.

No it doesnt unfortunately. V-22’s main cabin is actually smaller than Merlins – a factor compounded by the TOSS arrangement of dragging a retractable hard dome back into it. It is also unpressurised so any altitude advantage over Merlin is valueless.

It has performance advantages certainly and that would be undeniably useful for the, very important, time-on-station characteristics when compared to Merlin. That is about it for advantages though and, anyway you cut it, the costs involved in inducting a new type for such a marginal advantage over what we have currently hardly seem worth it.

Things, IMO, look even worse for TOSS-Osprey when you look at the high-endurance UAV designs coming down the pipe. Lets face it there is no need for a crew on an airframe that is solely there to hold a surveillance set up for as long as possible. All that is required is the vision to marinise platforms like Mantis and Mariner and mate them with a set like Searchwater 2000. For a small deck carrier, even if you have to mount a low/modest-power hydraulic catapult to get the UAV up, they represent so much more potential capability than any rotary/tilt-rotor platform.

Star: Mate those articles aren’t exactly right, I have friends over in Brazil that are telling me things way different to what is in those pieces of news you quoted. If Brazil is still so poor, why is Russia so keen to tap the Brazilian market? Truth is, Brazil does indeed have a very strong ecconomic stand point these days- due mainly to the up turn in copper trade and also the recent Tropical unrest here in Australia that wiped out our Banana crops which Brazil was able to capitalise on.

I never said Brazil is poor. But Brazil simply poor for the kind of money required for operating Aircraft carrier with all 4+ fighters or SSN/SSBN. The cost of fighterwing of 30 to 40 aircraft alone cost $10B. How much 24 F-18E cost Aust?. And that was 2006. I doubt Boeing will sign for the price again. They raised price to $70m for USN. Russia is tapping every market to diversify economy. They have long passed that stage of selling only arms.

Kev: Yes these are still ideas in someones head but with the RN buying Ski jump equipped Carriers and the Seaking AEW MK.7 needing replacement in the not too distant future it does seem logical. The AEW Merlin is the other option for the RN but if you weigh up performance factors of Merlin over Osprey, the V-22 comes out the major winner. Add to this the recent successful deployment to Iraq of the V-22 and you can see that it won’t be long before other uses for the machine become reality as do other nations interest. I can only vouch for Australia here but we have been watching the whole Osprey program for a number of years and are interested in buying the machine. Multiple versions of the plane makes sence from a pure business perspective.

Kato: Mate I doubt any other country will buy the Raf for operations off Carriers, they are having troubler as it is selling the land version. In the past five years I have heard a number of claims that it has been bought by various countries only to see that France is still the only operator. If anyone is to buy the Raf it will be the USN for DACT just like what they did with the F-21’s (IAI Kfir C.2’s) and they will only lease a dozen or buy a small number, say 6- nothing to get excited about.

Swerve: You are correct buddy, Brazil does indeed have a load of cash floating around, their problem, is investing it wisely. Half their fleet needs to be retired and half their ideas need to be discarded. One idea that they have which I understand but can’t how they are going to pull it off is… nuclear powered subs. These complex machines need respect.

Harry: Mate any current LHD design, including the MRD design could theoretically carry through to a STOVL design, the question is would the country opting for that design then pay for the extra design and modification to exisiting designs for this type of work?

Star: Mate those articles aren’t exactly right, I have friends over in Brazil that are telling me things way different to what is in those pieces of news you quoted. If Brazil is still so poor, why is Russia so keen to tap the Brazilian market? Truth is, Brazil does indeed have a very strong ecconomic stand point these days- due mainly to the up turn in copper trade and also the recent Tropical unrest here in Australia that wiped out our Banana crops which Brazil was able to capitalise on.

Brazil has plenty of money nowadays. Converted at exchange rates (which is what counts for imports) the same GDP as Russia or Canada, just ahead of India, more than S. Korea or Australia, & running a fat trade surplus & (until this year) respectable balance of payments surplus. No foreign debt – Brazil has just become a net creditor – times change.

Brazil does not have the Tax base to support military expansion and it will further decrease after commodity drop. Simple income base of population is not there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/economicNews/idUSN2553372320080925
Tax collections rose 4.27 percent to 53.93 billion reais ($29.6 bln) adjusted for inflation, compared with August 2007, the national tax authority said on Thursday

http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed032403.cfm
March 24, 2003
Russia’s Flat-Tax Miracle

could the MRD take STOVL aircraft as do like the design as its seems to be built with practicality and cheapness as priority and seems like a very flexible looking design

Paid for…….how?

Brazil has plenty of money nowadays. Converted at exchange rates (which is what counts for imports) the same GDP as Russia or Canada, just ahead of India, more than S. Korea or Australia, & running a fat trade surplus & (until this year) respectable balance of payments surplus. No foreign debt – Brazil has just become a net creditor – times change.

I have this certain hunch that Brazil’s next naval fighter is gonna be the Rafale.

Paid for…….how?

countries such as […] Brazil

I have this certain hunch that Brazil’s next naval fighter is gonna be the Rafale.

Throwing my thoughts into the mix here, I
AEWAC Element
I thought about the options here and the V-22 is probably the best option here. I looked at the different versions (the one with the Triangular radar, the option with the Erieye Radar and all other options), but I have decided that the best option would be the Searchwater equiped version (pictured below). The reason is that the radar folds in to the cabin behind and the basic config is not changed at all (height, weight, flight performance). These planes could also fly in close with a strike package and back out, the thought here is that they could also be stocked with ECM and Jamming gear to help hide the strike package!

These are both still hypotheticals though aren’t they, nobody has done anything about making them reality yet.

Well i feel that there is a clear case for them especially if countries such as Argentina, Brazil and Thailand decide to start up their naval aviation strike capacity again!

Sure. Although it would be more of an immediate requirement now.