Hey guys and gals 🙂
I decided to make the most of my last day off work this afternoon
(for those of you who don’t know, I got married at the Officers’ Mess at Duxford on the 18th September ;)) and watched one of my all time favourites, ‘Dambusters’ with a rather nice bottle of wine…
What ever your thoughts on the Dams raid, I am sure most of you will agree with me that ‘Dambusters’ is one of the best WW11 films ever made…ok it doesn’t have all the special effects of Saving Private Ryan, but it is well directed, has some fantastic lines and Richard Todd and Michael Redgrave are superb…the poignant scenes after the raid focusing on the empty table in the dining room, the empty beds, the letter left for a loved one, the clock on the dresser whilst cliched to some, to me drive home the reality of war; the loss of so many young men…so many lives shattered…
I believe there were three Lancasters used for filming, can anyone tell me what became of them? If my memory serves me correctly (and the wine was rather nice!) one of aircraft used was NX673…Also, does anyone have any details of the shots of the Wellington and Mosquito that were used? Were they filmed especially for the film or just footage used by the film makers?
According to the credits, the film was shot at Elstree, but I am sure it was not entirely shot there unless they have very big lakes at Elstree? Can anyone tell me if the shots of “Holland” are the Lincolnshire coast, and the Dams raid sequences shot at Derwent as I believe them to be?
I have a copy of Guy Gibson’s autobiography ‘Enemy Coast Ahead’ but it is some time since I read it so I have not checked it yet for the answer to my next question…in the film, Gibson’s faithful black labrador, Nigger, is run over and killed shortly before the raid…did this really happen or was this added by the script writers?
One thing that really p***** me off though is that whenever ‘Dambusters’ is shown on TV, all reference to Nigger’s name has been edited out…yes I know ‘Nigger’ is a racist term and not politically correct but come on, you have to remember this is 60 years ago, a different era, a different generation…you cannot change history…
Finally, last week whilst up in Lincolnshire introducing Mr Ashley to the BBMF at Coninsby and ‘Just Jane’ at East Kirkby, I visited the Petwood Hotel, formerly Woodhall Spa’s Officers’ Mess, and a regular haunt of Guy Gibson…I sure there are several of you here who have visited Petwood, but for the Dambusters/Lanc fans amongst us who haven’t it is really worth a visit…the Dambusters bar really is something else…it is full of items relating to the Dambusters raid and 617 Squadron, a museum in itself…
The room is sometimes used for functions and the table had been laid ready for some such function with the best silver and the best cutlery…Now I am not a religious person but I really got the strangest feeling stood in that bar…for a few moments the clock seemed to turn backwards to 1943…the table was set, the guest of honour was expected…any minute now Guy and his men would walk in ready for a delicious meal, a few drinks and an evening of laughter…a world away from flying deep into the heart of Germany…scanning the sky for enemy fighters…preparing to hit the target and then make it home safely again…
It’s funny how the mind can play tricks on you…
Ashley, newly married Spitfire polisher
P.S. Those of you who have e-mailed or MSGed me, many apologies for not replying yet, all the e-mails go to my work e-mail and I have hardly been near a computer for three weeks…but I will get back to you asap 🙂
By: Bluebird Mike - 7th October 2002 at 17:14
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
Re. Steve’s point about how far this sort of censoring of the past will go, it reminds me of a sequence in some Arthur C Clarke book or other, where two characters are at work for a company in the near-future, digitally removing all traces of people smoking from famous old films! Now, while I happen to be anti-smoking myself, I reckon that sort of cuckoo-minded act isn’t that far away…
By: JASE - 7th October 2002 at 15:21
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
Nigger’s grave is actually outside Gibson’s office next to 617’s hanger,although there are many stories in the Airforce about various Sqn detachments digging him up over the years!!So whether he ‘s still there-?Also many stories about a phantom black dog appearing around the time of the Dams Raid anniversary.
p.s I wish the americans would get their own history-and leave ours alone.
By: Steve Bond - 7th October 2002 at 13:59
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
The Mosquito shots were wartime footage, no Mossie being used in the production of the film.
By: Arabella-Cox - 7th October 2002 at 12:21
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
Ashley, congratulations to you both! 🙂 I was only thinking last week how quiet you’d become recently… 😉
As for the political correctness, I’d just got in from walking my own mutt (a very politically correct ‘Cara’) yesterday afternoon when I flicked the film on. I turned on just in time to see the Moehne dam burst, and then the scene cut to the silent ops room. The phone rings, the Erk picks it up, a combined look of disbelief and elation slowly crosses his face, and then the words ‘It’s gone!’ are heard over a picture of ‘Barnes Wallis’.
At that moment, something somewhere rang a little bell, but I didn’t realise what it was until a bit later. When I finally realised that this magnificent tribute to the 53 incredibly brave and gallant aircrew who didn’t return that night had been cut to remove a word which some present day idiots may find offensive, I was utterly furious.
Gibson’s dog was called Nigger. The dog was killed on the day of the raid, and his name was broadcast by Gibson’s w/op to signify that the Moehne dam had been breached. These are historical facts. And by removing it from the film, ITV have effectively censored a part of our history.
There are certain things which I find far, far more offensive than the use of a word which can be considered racist in particular contexts, and altering history to hide something which the present day generations may find offensive is totally unacceptable.
What kind of precedent does this set? How far will the PC concious media now go? Will children today grow up not knowing anything of the horrors of war, of the reasons why, the efforts made by countless millions of men to win the war and rid the world of Nazism?
History is there for a reason – it’s to teach us a lesson, that we should never let it happen again. If history is hidden, the sacrifices which so many made will have been in vain.
By: Ant.H - 6th October 2002 at 21:25
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-10-02 AT 09:27Â PM (GMT)]Hi Ashley-congratulations!!(Thought there must’ve been something pretty special going on to keep you away from the forum! lol)
In answer to one or two of your queeries,the Wellington used in the filming is the same machine that now resides at the RAFM,Hendon, although I’m not sure about the identity/fate of the Mossie.
I believe Gibson’s dog was indeed run over while Gibson was at the briefing for the raid,and that he breifed his batman to bury Nigger whilst Gibson was out on the raid.Perhaps Gibby himself thought it might be some sort of omen for what was to come,and that the dog ought to be put to rest at the same time as he himself.Perhaps I’m reading too much into the events.Nigger’s grave is still outside the old officer’s mess at Scampton.
With regard to ‘Nigger’ being edited out of the film these days,I don’t find it at all surprising,although I wouldn’t like to be the person who took the decision to remove it.In a recent survey,Nigger was rated at a higher offence level than the F-word and others that have traditionally been much more offensive.I don’t think f*ck would find too much favour amongst viewers of sunday afternoon telly,despite any historical meaning of the word.
The ‘Lancs’ in the background of the Scampton scenes were indeed Lincolns,and fully operational ones at that.All of the flying sequences for the film were done by service pilots from the same Lincoln squadron(Infuriatingly,I can’t remember the exact Sqn number,but i’ll try and dig it out) and the mock up cockpits etc used for the internal shots were made up from scrap/spare Lincoln bits.
I’d agree with Ashley that Dambusters is probably the best war film ever made,and that a remake would be little short of sacralige.The thought of an American in the lead role,the storyline changes…it makes your blood run cold!
By: Bluebird Mike - 6th October 2002 at 20:55
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
Congrats Ashley, I’m hapily married myself and know just how great it is!
As for ‘Nigger’, I’ve never noticed it being edited on TV before-sounds *****y daft to me though. I was always under the impression that the ‘hit and run’ thing was an invention, and that in fact the occupants of the car were injured themselves when they tried to avoid Nigger in the road? Anyone?
Lancs used in the film were as follows-
NX673
NX679
NX782
RT686
All were fully airworthy Mk.VII’s, and all four were sold at the end of filming for scrap to British Aluminium Co., 17th July 1956. I believe Lincolns were used in the backgrounds of some shots to make up numbers.
By: kev35 - 6th October 2002 at 20:32
RE: A couple of ‘Dambusters’ questions
Ashley,
First of all, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! May you have a long and happy life together.
As to Nigger’s demise, I believe he was run over shortly before the Squadron took off and it was Guy Gibson’s instructions that he should be buried at midnight.
I agree about the ‘PC’ brigade who are morally outraged over the use of the name ‘Nigger’. As you say it was a name used many years ago and should be regarded in that context. It’s a pity that these same people don’t show the same degree of concern for the fifty or so men who failed to return that night.
Regards,
kev35
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October 6, 2002 at 8:17 pm