A cynical ploy?

Originally posted by Hand87_5
Maybe you got the point Garry. That’s it …….. they are not HUMAN !!!! 🙂

Nah…Those ones are in Area 51.:rolleyes:

Flood.

Originally posted by GarryB

If they are not POWs then they are humans…

Maybe you got the point Garry. That’s it …….. they are not HUMAN !!!! 🙂

What set of international laws governs how captured terrorists, who are neither POWs or enemy government combatants, should be treated?

If they aren’t POWs and it wasn’t a war then they aren’t enemy combatants.

Was war declared against Afghanistan? If not, then the Afghani fighters aren’t POWs, are they? As for the terrorists captured, what law says they’re entitled to trial? They certainly don’t get protection under American law, they aren’t US citizens! Notice that John Lindh was an American, and got himself a trial…

So if it wasn’t a war then US military personel are responsible for kidnapping people from a foreign country and holding them in cages without legal council.

Trying to draw comparisons with Lindh is rediculous… Lindh was kidnapped and killed by criminals. If you think it is OK to adopt the methods and actions of a criminal organisation why bother trying to justify it with law?
If they are not POWs then they are humans… when you and a few other countries got together and defined the Universal Declaration of basic human rights you created definitions of what anyones rights are… no matter who they are or what they have done. You are now ignoring that, yet others who ignore such things you call rogue states.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
You’re right : the USA commited to respect the Kyoto treaty and the Bush administration took back the word of the precedent administration : classy. We can pollute as we want and we don’t give a damm about you!

Yet again, if we aren’t a current signatory we can’t be held accountable under the laws therein.

Mister GWB used the WAR against the terrorism in Afganistan. But it’s not a war? What a nice rethoric? Even those guys commited crimes and they deserve a trial and to be sentenced, or there no evidences and they have to be released.

Was war declared against Afghanistan? If not, then the Afghani fighters aren’t POWs, are they? As for the terrorists captured, what law says they’re entitled to trial? They certainly don’t get protection under American law, they aren’t US citizens! Notice that John Lindh was an American, and got himself a trial…

But maybe the evidences are hidden with the WMD’s ???This administration produced so many lies , fake documents that I don’t undertsand that people like you can still trust them …

If I don’t I’ll get fired 😀

I see we strongly disagree with what flag burning means. Flag burning isn’t just another form of political expression. It is at best a cheap trick to provoke and get attention (and is thereby entertainment all by itself), at worst a simple expression of hate and total rejection. It is quite possible to oppose US policy without sinking to such depths.
Therefore the context is indeed very important. A flag burnt in a sports arena, especially of the WWF type, is a poor stunt, as even the vast majority of the audience must know. The people on stage aren’t taken seriously to begin with, the trick is inflamatory, abnoxious, but at the end of the day quite obvious. It is far more meaningful when such antics take place at events which are taken seriously by all those present and countless others. A politically motivated rally, sometimes attended by members of various international groups, cannot degenerate into something which promotes hate. It makes hate politicaly acceptable, a short step away from making violence acceptable.
It is like other forms of hate speach. A rabid illiterate lunatic will never get the attention some eluqeunt speaker will receive, no matter how identical their message is. People don’t care what (insert wrestler name here) says, they do care what political, seemingly respectable figures do.

I have to disagree here Oren.
First of all, i think the context definately matters. Beginning a sports event with some overt political statement is a bit dubious IMHO. It’s one thing if you start a sporting match with singing anthems, but rallying up nationalistic tendencies for a sporting match by having an orchestrated bash at another nation is something of a different league. Although i could be wrong – it wouldn’t surprise me if a North Korean figure skating contest combines some anti-US-propaganda with it. Somehow it strikes me as a bit dubious coming from a Western democracy (call me biased if you will of course).

Furthermore, burning flags at a political rallye or demonstration does IMHO try to bring forward the idea behind the flag-burning as a point of view beyond just the attendants of that demonstration or rallye. It is a demonstration after all. On the other hand, a sports match (and especially something like US-style show-wrestling) is primarily aimed at an already existing audience, and doesn’t seem to have ‘export of ideas’ as it’s goal. There’s a big difference in preaching for your own parrish and trying to spread the word.

This makes the burning of the French flag at a WWE to me look more like an attempt at entertainment than as a serious political statement. Which IMHO is quite different from burning flags out of political motives.

And burning flags in a private setting is considered the most ‘right’ way to dispose of a flag that is no longer suitable to represent it’s country.

Originally posted by Arthur
I think there is a difference between the desecration of a flag as a political statement, and the desecration of a flag as part of something considered to be entertainment.

Both are one and the same, no one burns flags in the privacy of his own home. A French flag burned in front of a WWF audience is no worse than an American flag burned in front of TV cameras, the images beamed around the world. Everyone would like to think that his cause his high and just, while those of his opponents are not, his antics are justified while his opponents’ are crass. This is rarely the case.

Originally posted by Sauron
I have seen a number of US flags burned in France over the years by any number of jabbering popinjays shouting anti- US slogans. You would argue they have the right and they do and so would most Americans who normally just shrug it off. Your outrage over using the Tricolour as a prop at a WWF match isn’t believable.

I think there is a difference between the desecration of a flag as a political statement, and the desecration of a flag as part of something considered to be entertainment. I’m sure you realise that – although i’d like to see some evidence from MD.

Sauron:

“Plawolf

To bad you can’t come up with someting better than that load of rubbish. “

well sorry, but that was the best i can do given the quality (or rather lack of it) of the sourse material. :rolleyes:

if u want sth better from me, u need to first give me sth better to work with.:p

Originally posted by SOC
How are we in violation of the Kyoto treaty? We aren’t even a signatory. And what international rules are we breaking in Gitmo? What set of international laws governs how captured terrorists, who are neither POWs or enemy government combatants, should be treated? If you want to talk about the Taleban soldiers who are being held, you have a point, but only for the soldiers of the deposed regime.

You’re right : the USA commited to respect the Kyoto treaty and the Bush administration took back the word of the precedent administration : classy. We can pollute as we want and we don’t give a damm about you!

Mister GWB used the WAR against the terrorism in Afganistan. But it’s not a war? What a nice rethoric? Even those guys commited crimes and they deserve a trial and to be sentenced, or there no evidences and they have to be released.

But maybe the evidences are hidden with the WMD’s ???
This administration produced so many lies , fake documents that I don’t undertsand that people like you can still trust them …

Originally posted by Hand87_5
On the top of that , I won’t qualify an administration in violation of every international law , such as UN , international rules in Guatanamo , violating the Kyoto treaty ,invading a sovereign country without any agression , lying to his people , faking evidences, etc etc as democratic.

How are we in violation of the Kyoto treaty? We aren’t even a signatory. And what international rules are we breaking in Gitmo? What set of international laws governs how captured terrorists, who are neither POWs or enemy government combatants, should be treated? If you want to talk about the Taleban soldiers who are being held, you have a point, but only for the soldiers of the deposed regime.

Originally posted by Sauron
My my, more moral outrage and one of the most stupid comments we have ever heard even by Geforce’s standards.

Regards

Sauron

Could you clarify yourself? Ever thought of the fact that blue, red and white have a symbolic meaning?! Or do you really think flags are made just to look good, maybe the Canadian :p

Plawolf

To bad you can’t come up with someting better than that load of rubbish.

Regards

Sauron

“We are all deeply impressed by your compassion for those “frustrated individuals” who feal compelled to burn American flags and blame the US for their problems.”

who said anything abt US flags? ur paranoa has reach new hieghts i see.:rolleyes:

and since when did ‘understanding’ become ‘sympafise with’? if that was the case, then every anti-territost officer should be locked up for the ‘symathies’ with terrirots.:rolleyes:

“To bad these same heros wouldn’t burn the flags of the countries that they ran away from in the first place which are the real reason for their frustration.”

so, are WWF/E (whatever) wrestlers immagrents now?:rolleyes:

“Maybe they would get more respect if they had the courage of their convictions and act out their frustrations where it would mean something rather than in the streets of some European capital in front of a crowd of leftists who pretend to give a ****.”

oh, do u mean like bin ladden and co who decided to do sth to vent their anger/frustration… :rolleyes:

Plawolf

We are all deeply impressed by your compassion for those “frustrated individuals” who feal compelled to burn American flags and blame the US for their problems.

To bad these same heros wouldn’t burn the flags of the countries that they ran away from in the first place which are the real reason for their frustration.

Maybe they would get more respect if they had the courage of their convictions and act out their frustrations where it would mean something rather than in the streets of some European capital in front of a crowd of leftists who pretend to give a ****.

Regards

Sauron

My my, more moral outrage and one of the most stupid comments we have ever heard even by Geforce’s standards.

Regards

Sauron

Stupid to burn the French flag because it’s made of the same colours as the stars and stripes, which is no coincidence, and after all represents the same late 18th century ideology. (ofcourse also the other way around). Burning the Tricolor means burning the starts and stripes, but that’s ofcourse something these morons don’t understand.

Sauron ,
I agree with Plawolf comment .
On the top of that , I won’t qualify an administration in violation of every international law , such as UN , international rules in Guatanamo , violating the Kyoto treaty ,invading a sovereign country without any agression , lying to his people , faking evidences, etc etc as democratic.

“I have seen a number of US flags burned in France over the years by any number of jabbering popinjays shouting anti- US slogans. You would argue they have the right and they do and so would most Americans who normally just shrug it off. Your outrage over using the Tricolour as a prop at a WWF match isn’t believable. “

there’s world of difference between some frustrated individuals defacing the flags of other nations on the streets and ‘cerleberities’ doing the same thing live on stage in front of thousands if not millions of viewers.

a) the guys ripping up flags in the streets arent doing it for finacial gain.

b) these guys are not ‘idealised’ by thousands of kids, and children are not likely to go burning or ripping up flags cos they saw it on the 9 o’clock news but are far more likely to imiate the actions of their favourate ‘wrestlers’, and that might affect many of the kids for the rest of their lives.

“Lets face it, if the WTC image was used in a Democratic ad, we wouldn’t be discussing it here.”

so everyone who’s offended by bush trying to dig political capital out of the ashes of 9/11 are democrates now are we?:rolleyes: GWB certaintly doesnt hope so.:cool:

Hand

My comment was a general one not specifically aimed at you but you did use the term “shocking”. What I find shocking is the phony moral outrage of some here.

I have seen a number of US flags burned in France over the years by any number of jabbering popinjays shouting anti- US slogans. You would argue they have the right and they do and so would most Americans who normally just shrug it off. Your outrage over using the Tricolour as a prop at a WWF match isn’t believable.

Lets face it, if the WTC image was used in a Democratic ad, we wouldn’t be discussing it here.

Regards

Sauron