A few spitfire questions

An unregistered reader, not a million miles from TFC, advises:-

…if memory seves me correctly the rudder issue is to do with engine size development and the broad chord rudder with the split tab was to assist with the rudder direction on take off to counteract the torque of the Griffon engine

Mark

Yes I think your source is right in what they say about the broad chord rudder.

Steve

An unregistered reader, not a million miles from TFC, advises:-

…if memory seves me correctly the rudder issue is to do with engine size development and the broad chord rudder with the split tab was to assist with the rudder direction on take off to counteract the torque of the Griffon engine

Mark

Steve,

That was SM845…..! I think that was also wrong!

I know we did considerable wrestling with big rudders at the time.

Bruce

Bruce, After I had posted that i did wonder if I was right because it was for a MKXV111 and not a X1V !! SM845 being a MKXV111

Steve

I have a picture somewhere of ML417 taken at or around D-Day and that’s the configuration I would like to see her put back into.

I’ve always thought it would be great to convert ML417 back in to a T IX., but back into her D-Day config would be great also.

Steve,

That was SM845…..! I think that was also wrong!

I know we did considerable wrestling with big rudders at the time.

Bruce

In the case of SM832, it comes under ‘customer request’

The entire tailplane assembly now fitted to ‘832 was new build. The client supplied the rudder they wanted fitted, and we fitted it!

I seem to remember that the balance tab had been built back to front, so we had to turn it the right way round!

Bruce

Hi Bruce , you are quite correct about the rudder on SM832, it was a new build when Adrian Reynard had the plane. I did it at AA & i do seem to remember that the trim tab was built wrong. That must have been in about 1997 or 98 at a guess.

Steve

Tail Chase

In the case of SM832, it comes under ‘customer request’

The entire tailplane assembly now fitted to ‘832 was new build. The client supplied the rudder they wanted fitted, and we fitted it!

I seem to remember that the balance tab had been built back to front, so we had to turn it the right way round!

Bruce

It comes back to me now.

I traded a package including the DM restored original tail unit of Mk XIV SM832 with Doug Arnold for parts including a Mk IX tail unit. The latter being the COGEA spare from SM32/MH424. Doug was going to build SM832 as Merlin powered at that time.

In the way of things the MH424 tail ended up on the DM build of PL344 for Charles Church, now in the care of ARCo at Duxford. By supreme coincidence it is sitting in the same hanger as MJ271/H-8, which is awaiting restoration and currently painted in Dutch livery as ‘MH424/H-53’.

My plans changed and I regretted later parting with that Mk IX tail.

Followers of Spitfire minutiae might have noted that Mk XIV Spitfire RM694, formerly the Gate Guard at RAF Hornchurch, had since the mid 1950’s or earlier been fitted with a small Mk IX tail group.

RM694 is currently in the care of Paul Andrews awaiting its turn in the rebuild process. To cut the story short, by mutual exchange, RM694 now has the the correct Mk XIV tail of SM832 and Spitfire XII EN224 has the correct non retracting small tail formerly fitted to RM694.

Everybody happy. 🙂

Mark

In the case of SM832, it comes under ‘customer request’

The entire tailplane assembly now fitted to ‘832 was new build. The client supplied the rudder they wanted fitted, and we fitted it!

I seem to remember that the balance tab had been built back to front, so we had to turn it the right way round!

Bruce

Thanks.

Is this an anomaly to Griffon highback spits supplied only to India?

More likely just an inherited spare part.

The Indian Air Force was operating both the the Mk XIV and the MK XVIII Spitfire post the partition of August 1947.

Mark

I’m starting to dream to much and want all of the airworthy Spits that way! 😀

Cheers

Paul

Steady on, old boy! 😀

There is/was a photo floating around of her wearing full-span wingtips, albeit temporarily I think, in 2001…

Found the thread:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42525

Going back off topic slightly, yes Daz, I remember now!

I have a picture somewhere of ML417 taken at or around D-Day and that’s the configuration I would like to see her put back into.

Full span wings, standard rudder, 10.25 inch wheels (might have even had the 10 inch ones), earlier U/C legs, fishtail exhausts, possibly the earlier ‘flat’ top cowling, and of course the earlier wing and cannon arrangement (or the one we used to term a ‘c’ wing until Mark12 showed us that this designation never officially existed for the MKIX). 😉

Opening up a can of worms I know, but after seeing AR213 looking pretty much as she left the factory, I’m starting to dream to much and want all of the airworthy Spits that way! 😀

Cheers

Paul

Indian Air Force fit.

Mark

Thanks.

Is this an anomaly to Griffon highback spits supplied only to India?

Your absolutely correct SM832 as a high back does have the broader chord rudder. ******.

The BBMF XIXs’ don’t either.

There I was years ago thinking at last I am an expert on Spitfire rudder profiles and SM832 is at odds with the previous advise!

Perhaps MK 12 can advise why SM832 as a high back has the same broader chord rudder that its low back contemporaries have?

Indian Air Force fit.

Mark

Andy,

I don’t have them to hand at the moment, but it mentions the larger rudder with split trim/anti-balance tab as fitted to later low back XIV’s & the MKXVIII in the MKXIV pilots notes. (I can’t remember the Mod number – I’m sure Mark12 will tell us).

Looking at photos of early MKXVIII’s and early low back XIV’s, they appeared to have the earlier narrow chord rudder fitted.

SM832 actually has the larger chord rudder with anti-balance tab fitted (as MV293 does), whilst RN201 has the earlier type .

According to Charlie Brown, the later type gives your legs a real workout during aerobatics, as the anti-balance tab was designed to fight the pilots rudder inputs to help improve the directional stability during dives on the low back machines.

Cheers

Paul

Your absolutely correct SM832 as a high back does have the broader chord rudder. ******.

The BBMF XIXs’ don’t either.

There I was years ago thinking at last I am an expert on Spitfire rudder profiles and SM832 is at odds with the previous advise!

Perhaps MK 12 can advise why SM832 as a high back has the same broader chord rudder that its low back contemporaries have?

[QUOTE=Spiteful;1272328]Thanks Mark.
Comparing to this picture (found on internet – couldn’t see who to credit, apologies) It looks like a Vokes to me on EP120? What do you think?

Visually…maybe.

Logically…no. It went to 45 MU on 23 May 1942 then straight to 501 Squadron on 4 June.

Its former pilot with 501 was at Legends this past weekend.

Mark

Thanks Mark.
Comparing to this picture (found on internet – couldn’t see who to credit, apologies) It looks like a Vokes to me on EP120? What do you think?

I asked this question on here some years ago and the answer back was MV293 is a low back XIV and normally has an even larger rudder than for example SM832 (bigger horn balance and larger chord to offset loss of fuselage area with the low back IIRC) which has a high back. RN201 also has the same rudder as SM832 and is a high back.

Perhaps our Spitfire chaps can clarify if the XIV low backs have a retro fitted XVIII rudder or if it was first introduced on the XIV?

Andy,

I don’t have them to hand at the moment, but it mentions the larger rudder with split trim/anti-balance tab as fitted to later low back XIV’s & the MKXVIII in the MKXIV pilots notes. (I can’t remember the Mod number – I’m sure Mark12 will tell us).

Looking at photos of early MKXVIII’s and early low back XIV’s, they appeared to have the earlier narrow chord rudder fitted.

SM832 actually has the larger chord rudder with anti-balance tab fitted (as MV293 does), whilst RN201 has the earlier type .

According to Charlie Brown, the later type gives your legs a real workout during aerobatics, as the anti-balance tab was designed to fight the pilots rudder inputs to help improve the directional stability during dives on the low back machines.

Cheers

Paul

Mark – do you have a copy of the picture available that could be enlarged? Looking at it in detail, I can see that background shapes could cause the illusion of a Vokes filter, but comparing it with a photo of JG891 at a similar angle – the shape and the way the light falls and the focus look spot on to me?

As supplied, it was a very low grade scanned print.

I never noticed before until someone on here pointed it out, but TFC Spitfire XIV MV293/G-SPIT has a MkXVIII rudder….

I asked this question on here some years ago and the answer back was MV293 is a low back XIV and normally has an even larger rudder than for example SM832 (bigger horn balance and larger chord to offset loss of fuselage area with the low back IIRC) which has a high back. RN201 also has the same rudder as SM832 and is a high back.

Perhaps our Spitfire chaps can clarify if the XIV low backs have a retro fitted XVIII rudder or if it was first introduced on the XIV?

Thanks for the info on the rudder, makes sense now.

Mark – do you have a copy of the picture available that could be enlarged? Looking at it in detail, I can see that background shapes could cause the illusion of a Vokes filter, but comparing it with a photo of JG891 at a similar angle – the shape and the way the light falls and the focus look spot on to me?