A good reason to bring back the death penalty

I would love to address your first point Sky High, but alas that would leave me and the webb site open I would fancy to potential legal action.

You are correct that I have somewhat diverted from the main theme, so let me just say this.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I cannot see how it can be right for any civilised society to use the death penalty.

Secondly, there are countless cases of innocent people being found guilty. A death penalty would result in the deaths of innocent people.

I have no faith in the UK legal system, I think it is open to corruption and is restricted only to those people who can afford it.

Never ever trust a jury. I have been on one and the other people on it freightened me. All they were interested in was getting home, down the pub etc and were not interested at all in the arguments/evidence in question.

Fair point, Waco.

As for the rest you and I are in complete agreement. You have experienced the realities of jury service, as have I and I have also had personal experience of miscarriage of justice.

Not only do I find the “ultimate sanction” morally insupportable but the risks of error all the way through the judicial process are too great.

I would love to address your first point Sky High, but alas that would leave me and the webb site open I would fancy to potential legal action.

You are correct that I have somewhat diverted from the main theme, so let me just say this.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I cannot see how it can be right for any civilised society to use the death penalty.

Secondly, there are countless cases of innocent people being found guilty. A death penalty would result in the deaths of innocent people.

I have no faith in the UK legal system, I think it is open to corruption and is restricted only to those people who can afford it.

Never ever trust a jury. I have been on one and the other people on it freightened me. All they were interested in was getting home, down the pub etc and were not interested at all in the arguments/evidence in question.

Ok, there have been a number of disasters in the UK where loss of life has occured. Yet the people responsible for running the business’s concerned are never prosecuted.

It’s different rules for different folk.

Away from corporate matters, what about our Brazillian friend on the tube. The state walked away from that one.

Firstrly I think you need to be specific regarding your first point and name the cases where individual fault was found. Your second point is a fairly sweeping generalisation without evidence and with no disrespect to another poster here, your third point addresses a very “grey area”.

And in any case our exchanges have moved us away from the kernel of this topic which is about capital murder and the punishment thereof, as I understand it. Manslaughter is entirely different, in law.

Ok, there have been a number of disasters in the UK where loss of life has occured. Yet the people responsible for running the business’s concerned are never prosecuted.

It’s different rules for different folk.

Away from corporate matters, what about our Brazillian friend on the tube. The state walked away from that one.

OK then, what about Corporate manslaughter ?

Please elaborate so that I don’t misunderstand you.

OK then, what about Corporate manslaughter ?

Ok, humour me please.

Lets take the current financial situation. Greed drove many financial instutions into bankruptcy/insolvency that has resulted in a major economic slump.

That slump has caused massive hardship to millions. I some case this hardship has resulted in the loss of life.

If you have the death penalty, should’nt those people that caused the economic slump be convicted and then executed.

Just a thought……….

Humouring is one thing, Waco, but following your tenuous link from financial greed to the noose is really a bit much.

Ok, humour me please.

Lets take the current financial situation. Greed drove many financial instutions into bankruptcy/insolvency that has resulted in a major economic slump.

That slump has caused massive hardship to millions. I some case this hardship has resulted in the loss of life.

If you have the death penalty, should’nt those people that caused the economic slump be convicted and then executed.

Just a thought……….

I think that all of us here, even if we fall on different sides of the fence would agree that the current system has major flaws! For instance, I know I would not accept a conviction based solely on DNA, and I sure don’t trust a lone police officer’s word. Have personal (family) non-crime (vehicle related) experience on that. Oh, and current juries annoy the daylights out of me. I’m glad we have ’em, but all the good people in the US jury system generally get knocked off of the jury for all kinds of reasons, and you really don’t get a jury by your “peers” at all. I mean, can you actually imagine a pilot getting a jury of pilots? Oh, and other people who should serve on them don’t because it’s so financially dangerous.
I stand by my previous statements above in the thread, only on the assumption that a proper determination is made. That is assuming we KNOW someone is a murderer, like the guy up in Waco, or a situation where there are plenty of witnesses.

Ryan

Old Shape, would really like to buy you a beer, enjoy your company and discuss long into the night.

The analogy, not well explained on my behalf but in a nutshell. The state itself is responsible for many deaths of its citizens. One rule for the rich and connected, one rule for the poor.

Twas ever thus and I really wish it wasnt.

Hi Old Shape

Sorry if in any way I miss represented your comments or thoughts.

However, we live in a very corrupt world. That includes the police and legal system. The current legal system has more holes than a tea bag and access to justice in the UK only exists if you have money.

If a UK computer guy can hack the American military computers, millions of people can falisfy evidence.

Poor innocent people would die, rich guilty people would get off. At has always been thus.

You cannot guarantee an infalable system, without it innocent people will die. Therefore, the death penalty must not exist.

Just a thought from a life long Manchester United fan…..what should have happend to the police officers in charge at Hilsborough ? (alledgedly…).

Retired ????

Say no more…………..and believe me I don’t like Liverpool FC at all (even though Steve Highway and Ian Callaghan have always been favourites of mine !) .

Cheers !

Thankfully, I am part of the corruption. I do work for the UK Gt and I took money to vote. I no longer care, this country is in the hands of 650 idiots that waste skin and have no right to share my air. I cannot stand by
corruption and have none of it myself.

Innocents die all the time. If we make a secure system that works the best it can then the statistical mistakes will get less each time. Getting the system right is the hard bit. The removal of child killers, child rapists, anti-west terrorists is the easy bit. Oh so easy. “Ordinary” murder cases need a LOT more looking into.

Hillsborough? That’s a long way off topic and do not understand the analogy. For the record, I do not support LFC but I lived in Liverpool at the time so my opinions of the police that day, and the Sun newspaper are the same.

Hi Old Shape

Sorry if in any way I miss represented your comments or thoughts.

However, we live in a very corrupt world. That includes the police and legal system. The current legal system has more holes than a tea bag and access to justice in the UK only exists if you have money.

If a UK computer guy can hack the American military computers, millions of people can falisfy evidence.

Poor innocent people would die, rich guilty people would get off. At has always been thus.

You cannot guarantee an infalable system, without it innocent people will die. Therefore, the death penalty must not exist.

Just a thought from a life long Manchester United fan…..what should have happend to the police officers in charge at Hilsborough ? (alledgedly…).

Retired ????

Say no more…………..and believe me I don’t like Liverpool FC at all (even though Steve Highway and Ian Callaghan have always been favourites of mine !) .

Cheers !

OP

You can never trust a life to a jury.

Take a look in your local or on the high street, would you really trust your life in their hands……………freightning.

As for killing people first, then sorting out the system ????

Never let the genie out of the bottle.

As for forensic evidence being indisputable, these days the authorities have dna records, what would it take to simply plant a small piece of dna. The copper gets a big pay off and perhaps YOU go to the gallows.

Believe me it would happen.

OP? me I presume.
I didn’t say what you said I said.
If the system was available to off them, the process of putting them to death would be much improved. Only the absolute certains would get through.
As for the high street, I agree. Read my post.
As for DNA planting, yes it can be a problem but the white-coats can tell the difference of such. The stolen condom routine has been tried and it failed.
I agre on jail too, the sentanced should hit their knees and beg for mercy once prison is mentioned. But no, it’s gladiator school for scum to improve their M.O. whilst being kept warm/fed/widescreened at the taxpayers expense.

OP

You can never trust a life to a jury.

Take a look in your local or on the high street, would you really trust your life in their hands……………freightning.

As for killing people first, then sorting out the system ????

Never let the genie out of the bottle.

As for forensic evidence being indisputable, these days the authorities have dna records, what would it take to simply plant a small piece of dna. The copper gets a big pay off and perhaps YOU go to the gallows.

Believe me it would happen.

There have been far too many miscarriages of justice to allow the Death penalty to be commonplace again.. Its easy to say hang ’em all but how would you feel if it was a member of your family in the chair and they were later found to be totally innocent?

But anyway surely the best punishment for any of these thugs is to deny them the right to walk the streets??? Lock them up for life where appropriate and life imprisonment should mean life …and not the comfortable junket that is the case now.

Hard labour for the rest of their days with no chance of early release unless they are proven to be innocent.

Never……..

How many innocent people would the state have killed, the Birmingham 5, Stefan Kishco etc, etc.

Lets concentrate on a having a fair legal system first. In my humble opinion, you only get “justice” if you can afford it these days .

But, if the Death Penalty were re-introduced then the thought process of a Jury making it 12-0 will actually improve Police system and the Court system and thus the whole process. Yes, it would have to be a 12-0, but to convince all 12 that the Police hadn’t messed up, the forensic was undisputable etc. will drive a better system.
Jury duty may be taken more seriously too. As often remarked, a Jury is made up of 12 people not important enough to get out of it.

And, IIRC the Birmingham 5 were not actually innocent. They were released because the Police knocked the sh!t out of them during questioning and thus the verdict/confession may have been unsafe. At least 2 of them immediately went out on the Ale with known IRA terrorists.
The Police beatings were part of the crap system mentioned above.
The evidence agin Kishco was never enough to convince a hanging Jury so would have been life.
I agree, get the system right but not necessarily first. The Death P will be driver to improve the system. Left to the Civil Service to put a think-tank together means it will take 15 years of study and the answer would be wrong and ill thought out.

Never……..

How many innocent people would the state have killed, the Birmingham 5, Stefan Kishco etc, etc.

Lets concentrate on a having a fair legal system first. In my humble opinion, you only get “justice” if you can afford it these days .

What are we talking about here 51/49, 60/40, 80/20? :rolleyes: Are you serious? yes:rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/13/rape-convictions-low

“The government estimates that as many as 95% of rapes are never reported to the police at all. Of the rapes that were reported from 2007 to 2008, only 6.5% resulted in a conviction…” If those 6.5% where because of substantiated evidence then pull the trigger😉
Yes, that’s less than one in every three-hundred alleged ‘rapists’ getting convicted.

How is a death penalty going to improve conviction rates in any case that ultimately relies on the word of one person against another?

Death when a guilty verdict is based on solid evidence not just someone saying oh he raped me on a whim.
You can come up with stacks of statistics but that dosen’t prove anything
it’s been proved that 95% of statistics are wrong;):D

Once proven 100% guilty [by todays investgative and forensic abilities]
Bullet to the back of the head job done no re offending.

For the record

Rapists Death

I beleive [however naively ] that more rightly convicted would die than wrongly convicted given todays forensic science.

What are we talking about here 51/49, 60/40, 80/20? :rolleyes: Are you serious?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/13/rape-convictions-low

“The government estimates that as many as 95% of rapes are never reported to the police at all. Of the rapes that were reported from 2007 to 2008, only 6.5% resulted in a conviction…”

Yes, that’s less than one in every three-hundred alleged ‘rapists’ getting convicted.

How is a death penalty going to improve conviction rates in any case that ultimately relies on the word of one person against another?

The way I look at this is that, she may have not only killed the child but also cut up the childs body and disposed of it – those additional acts to me suggest nothing other than cold blooded murder.

It is my belief that in such circumstances, capital punishment is quite justified – if a murderer doesn’t want to be executed then they should quite simply not kill anyone – it isn’t hard – I’ve never killed anyone.