A moral dilemma

I’d agree with the majority here. Leave the crew together.
You’d otherwise be opening Pandora’s box.

And also opening doors that have already had closure.

Ali

I have to agree with the majority on here, best left alone. I have a relative buried in this way in France, I don’t particularly like it. They died together, leave them in peace.

Can I point out that this thread has wandered a long way from answering Skipper’s question into the murky territory of (currently) unsubstantiated rumour?

Moggy

oh dear god,

i know there are some absolute ******* around but surely not?
I presume this wasnt kids?

ehhhh hang on ..if its on video….why hasnt someone taken this up with the authorities…or is it something to be carefull of..presecution pending?

I’m sure it wasn’t kids and it was one of those conversations that I only half listened to as far as details was concerned. I know my mate did a story about it and the MOD police were involved but I can’t remember who it was or what the outcome was.

Ali

Don’t know too much about it but apparently the guy was videoed carrying the remains over his shoulder in a bin liner or something and dumping them. 😡 I will give my friend a call and see what the details were. It was a while ago I heard about it.

Ali

oh dear god,

i know there are some absolute ******* around but surely not?
I presume this wasnt kids?

ehhhh hang on ..if its on video….why hasnt someone taken this up with the authorities…or is it something to be carefull of..presecution pending?

This has to be one of the most disgusting things that anyone can do… cannot beleive that anyone with a scrap of respect for these fallen heroes could do such a thing.

sick isnt the word for it..

Don’t know too much about it but apparently the guy was videoed carrying the remains over his shoulder in a bin liner or something and dumping them. 😡 I will give my friend a call and see what the details were. It was a while ago I heard about it.

Ali

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a journalist and he was involved in the story of a Tempest V that was excavated illegally where remains were found and the authorities were not contacted. I don’t know the whole story but the point is that they dug up what was supposed to be the pilots “war grave” in order to do DNA tests on what was in the coffin to establish the ID of the remains tampered with. I will get in touch with him and see if there are any other details that I can pass on.

Ali

This has to be one of the most disgusting things that anyone can do… cannot beleive that anyone with a scrap of respect for these fallen heroes could do such a thing.

sick isnt the word for it..

From what I have heard, the MOD has a policy that those already in “War Graves” are NOT to be subjected to DNA testing… that is to be reserved for those remains not positively identified as being UK/Commonwealth servicemen.

If they are already identified as UK/Commonwealth servicemen, then that is enough for the MOD.

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a journalist and he was involved in the story of a Tempest V that was excavated illegally where remains were found and the authorities were not contacted. I don’t know the whole story but the point is that they dug up what was supposed to be the pilots “war grave” in order to do DNA tests on what was in the coffin to establish the ID of the remains tampered with. I will get in touch with him and see if there are any other details that I can pass on.

Ali

the worst situation would be DNA tests finding that one or more of those supposedly in the grave were not there at all.

Worse still that DNA tests showed one set of remains was not present and had been dug up and reburied by some recovery group :rolleyes: . Seriously though IF it was found that only two sets of remains were buried originally(which is highly unlikely in the case of a US serviceman due to the detailed Individual Deceased Personnel File,IDPF,made at the time) surely it is better to inform JPAC of this finding so the crash site can be properly investigated(by JPAC) in the hope the MIA can be found and given a proper burial. If his remains could not be found his status would remain/be changed to Missing In Action and the site declared a grave.

Hi Scotavia,

Even if the pilot/crew have known graves the MOD should still be informed if human remains are found. There are cases where the original burial consisted of very little,and the majority of the body is still at the crash site,in such a case it is possible the MOD will still grant a licence to dig but as is clearly stated in the Notes For Guidence of Recovery Groups if human remains are found the police and MOD must be informed immediately,and on no account should the remains be touched/moved.

Another reason the relevent authorities should be informed when remains are found is to prevent a further licence to dig being issued at some future time.

To be honest your post points out perfectly the attitude of many “wreckologists” in that they believe they know better than anyone else. There are examples of wreckologists questioning why they have been refused a licence on a particular(fatal) site when all the crew have graves,they do not stop to consider that there may be reason to believe there are still human remains present at the site.If the MOD stated that although the crew have graves there maybe human remains at the site the wreckologists would whine about giving them a proper burial in order to bring about a dig,yet obviously if a licence is granted without mention of the possibility of remains being raised and remains are then found the group just rebury them and say nothing.

There is an easy way of stopping human remains being found and reburied in the manner you describe,and that is for the MOD to stop granting licences to dig on any site where a fatality occured. I know several families who lost loved ones in crashes in the UK who would be in favour of such a move.

I presume that the group you refer to had a licence to dig on the sites where human remains were found? and would it be safe to say that even though remains were found they still continued with the dig and removed wreckage from the site? if this is the case they failed to follow the guidance laid down by the MOD.

Other questions arise from this,when the group found human remains did they consider that they may have the wrong site? again this has happened in the past,and did they consider the possibility(however slim) that there may have been an extra person on board the aircraft who does not appear in the accident report? If either of these scenarios proved to be the case the group would be denying a missing aircrewman a proper burial.

Sadly the examples you mention of groups reburying human remains are not unique. In 1998 I spoke to a member of a group(who were at the time part of the BAAC) who told me how they carried out a dig on a particular Magister crash site and found the pilots legs,and then reburied them.

Now you have stated publicly that you have knowlidge of these remains being reburied you really are obliged to report all you know to your local police and the MOD.

Best left undisturbed, the worst situation would be DNA tests finding that one or more of those supposedly in the grave were not there at all.
Sure relatives would not like that result.

You missed my point Garry, in the cases I know of the crews remains had already been recovered during wartime and buried with full ceremony. What happened is that the later dig found further remains. What possible good would that do if made public?

These three brave men have lain at rest for over half a century.

Why disturb them now?

Leave be

Hi Skipper,

It really depends on several factors,how do you think the families would take this news? Have they already voiced concerns over the original burial?.

Contrary to the majority on here I would say you have an obligation to tell the families what you have found. I have been involved in researching US losses for a long time and have delt with similiar situations and I know that most families I’m in contact with would prefer to know. If you would like to send me a PM I can give you further information which may help you. I take it the documents to which you refer are the IDPF’s?.

Regarding the comment about a “recovery group” re-burying human remains,this is both illegal AND immoral,what gives them the right to play god in this way? I’d suggest that rather than doing it out of any sort of respect for the men or their families it was done to cover the groups own backs.

I’d agree with the majority here. Leave the crew together.
You’d otherwise be opening Pandora’s box.

I agree, let them be. As far as DNA technology is concerned, it would certainly be possible to seperate the three sets of remains from one another – assuming they were not closely related – and identifying them should also be possible if they have living first degree relatives. But I cannot really see why it should be done. Also, you are bound to find one of the relatives disagrees, and this would make the situation even more difficult.

DS

It not an uncommon situation. I know of one incident where the remains of a cow were also accidentally included in a crash burial. Like most others on this thread my feeling it’s best to let it be.

My personal opinion would be to let it be.
As well as other problems mentioned above, suggesting reburial brings up the awful possibility of the three families falling out over the decision.

Roger Smith.

Hi Skipper,

It’s a tough one. If you were ‘commissioned’ to do the work by the families, then you have an obligation to share your conclusions with them. (It’s wise to discuss the potential for difficult issues which can come up before setting out with these quests.)

If you weren’t commissioned, you are under no obligation, and I’d let it lie – you can’t bring them back, and as long as they are memorialised, I feel it’s not worth going into a reburial. It would be distressing, stressful, expensive and politically and practically difficult, for little benefit to the living or dead.

A good argument can be made (as Damien put forward) for the opposite point of view.

Of course this is just my opinion, and I hope it helps.