A plea to Mark12

An informative and extensive post from the insomniac Tangmere does cut through a lot of the nonsense that has been promulgated. I would just like to make a final comment.

During the buried Spitfires saga I was a significant contributor in my personal capacity as a long term doubter. The discussions became quite intense. But AT NO TIME in that discussion did I use my moderation team membership to edit any content of Peter’s other than 1) by removing some huge ‘quoted’ posts, often ones directly above his own response, carefully avoiding every single word Peter had penned. This is in line with forum rules and apply to him just as much as the rest of us. 2) At one point he indulged in some bizarre postings messages consisting of just a full stop (full point for colonials).

There were some posts of his that badly needed moderation (and some of mine). I deliberately DID NOT moderate his for the very reason that I wish to avoid any implication of using my volunteer position here to stifle valid debate. Other moderators did take action, removing both my posts and his.

Even now I have hesitated to close this thread for the same reason. But the end has come for this non-aviation topic.

Moggy

One would find it hard to disagree with at least the first six sentences of Rocketeer’s post, above.

It is a rather unfortunate fact that, by the very nature of the internet and forums like this one, posters are much more inclined to say things that in a real rather than ‘virtual’ inter-action they wouldn’t dream of saying. Or, if they did, there would likely be a healthy and robust exchange of views and/or differences of opinions, disagreement would more likely to be patched-up and life would move on – as it always has done.

I haven’t spoken to Mark12 for a good few weeks, but I’m likely to at some point in the not-too-distant, I suspect. Having known him very well for around 40 years, I think, and worked with him not infrequently, he and I have had some very robust differences of opinion and viewpoints – including on this forum. Interaction with Peter, by those who wish to do so via other means, has probably not ended, I’d venture to suggest. As such, life as we know it is probably not over. However, the down-side of forum interactions that have seemingly led to his ‘departure’ (and others across the years) is that exchanges can have a habit of turning fairly poisonous and toxic, egos get bruised and the ‘keyboard warrior’ syndrome seems to kick in.

Whilst I don’t pretend to know the reason for Mark12’s ‘silence’ the visible evidence, on this forum, is that it is directly linked to a ‘spat’ (as opposed to a Spit) between two prominent and extremely knowledgeable forum posters that kicked-off, first in the Dennis Copping P-40 thread, and then in the Zombie ’15 New Hinds’ thread. This was a dispute between two parties which became unnecessarily public and ugly and apologies were demanded and none were given. As a consequence, the clear evidence visible on this forum is that Mark12 departed with an ‘over and out’ message on his 10,000th post, seemingly the result of having his integrity called into question on a matter relating to the Hinds and not getting the apology he felt he was owed. Maybe he was owed an apology. Maybe he wasn’t. But I’d suggest that here was not the place to so publicly slug out such matters. It didn’t do anyone any favours and was unedifying in the extreme for all parties, not to mention the fact that other uninvolved third-parties were in danger of being very unwillingly dragged in.

Clearly, Mark12 may well have felt generally weary and jaded about participation on the forum generally. I don’t know. But what is obvious is that suggestions of bullying, trolling and ‘deliberate deletion of Mark12’s posts by a moderator out of personal pique’ do not seem to have been anything like the visible reason for his choice to stay away. All of the suggestions posted by others, above, seem to point that up as a reason, rather than drawing any attention to the facts and circumstances which immediately led up to his withdrawal.

Speaking personally, the situation is doubly (or trebly) unfortunate in that the three parties who have seemingly been involved or linked to this situation (two directly, and one indirectly by suggestion) are all good friends and colleagues of mine. Pals, as well as work colleagues and fellow enthusiasts.

It is surely time to move on and all play nicely. Mark12 will return if he wants to. If he doesn’t, then those who want to reach him, can. Life continues. It is also too short to waste time on this rubbish when there are interesting things aeronautical to discus.

There might be an appropriate place to draw a line? But that is up to the Moderators, and (for the avoidance of any doubt) I only speak in a personal capacity – rather than on behalf of Key Publishing.

Yawn. Peter is missed and may or may not return. This forum should be about historic aviation, one persons bullying is another persons banter. One persons ego is another persons arrogance. For this forum, peters absence is this forums loss. Several people have taken a break from this forum, some return, some cannot be bothered. Some time ago I started a thread asking what is wrong with this forum…..whatever it is, it still is.
Now I am awaiting the pedant and grammar police, not to mention the forumites who obviously know better than us mere mortals to tell me how wrong I am.

the anti-Mark12 forum shenanigans have occasionally reached a bullying bloodsport level that has been enough to nauseate. His choice in abandoning the forum for a while, if not permanently, is a direct result of that. I know who to blame for his reaction.

And therein lies the problem doesn’t it Matt – just another unsupported somewhat hyperbolic accusation. What is the difference between discussion and bullying as you see it. My take is as I said above in post 31 … topics do occur which by their nature invite differences of opinion, requests for more evidence, varying interpretations of data etc. So what if these discussions become robust that’s how it happens in real life folks.

Robust discussion isn’t bullying it is just what happens when people disagree on something. Bullying in a discussion is abusive denigration unsupported by anything other than emotion and vindictiveness. The sort of thing that our mods delete with good reason as they do canvassing of issues which by their nature are essentially matters that lie outside the purview of public discussion for private or legal reasons. Forums like this are owned by other parties and they cannot allow themselves to be legally compromised for obvious reasons.

I saw no instances of bullying (given the 10 hour time difference which probably saw inappropriate posts deleted) but if robust disagreement is the issue then perhaps we should only express opinions that agree on any issue so as to avoid disagreement because that might be construed as bullying. However if people wish to invest a high level of emotion and personal committment into a project or topic that later is demonstrated to be a false hope then perhaps we and they need to accept that the cause of the personal disappointment is not those who were sceptical but the person themselves. In other words hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

And so say most of us !

Seriously, let’s move on. I only briefly interacted with Peter on here, mainly by PM. He was courteous and helpful, especially when it cane to steering me, as a relative newbie and know-nothing, gently away from dangerous waters. In that spirit, let those who remain talk about old aeroplanes, please!

On behalf of the hundreds who will continue to exercise choice in viewing this topic (until Key Publishing removes it), and those who will take it a step further by chiming in with further posts, let me apologize to Beermat for showing an interest in something which is much more than just “talk about old aeroplanes.”

Not everyone shares your mindset toward this topic, Beermat. Seriously, why don’t YOU move on, with all due respect? Or perhaps you have. But I’ll bet you’re reading this — even if you’re off-line to avoid detection — and you will continue to check in on this thread. And why? Because, like all of us, though you roll your eyes in reaction to some things you’ve read, you also opt to continue viewing a sometimes-distasteful thread because it can actually stimulate positive thought.

I sure hope Historic Aviation Forum overseers (above the level of moderator) recognize Mark12’s unparalleled contributions to this forum over the years, as a long-acknowledged expert willing to share freely, generously, and very publicly. Hey, there’s an entire thread about him, with over 4500 hits so far, for a great reason — because the vast majority know who Mark12 is, and they gravitate towards topics involving him (in this case, ABOUT him).

He has willingly offered opinion and analysis to the viewers, despite knowing that on some topics backlash was likely just a matter of time. He certainly isn’t perfect, but the anti-Mark12 forum shenanigans have occasionally reached a bullying bloodsport level that has been enough to nauseate. His choice in abandoning the forum for a while, if not permanently, is a direct result of that. I know who to blame for his reaction.

Of course, this forum will survive without Mark12 — but many of us will be the poorer for it. Here’s hoping he comes back, in fighting trim, and as generous as ever with his photos AND his opinions.

Merlin70’s post would make an excellent epilogue for this thread. Shall we make it so?

Its an odd sort of place this. We gather here to chew the cud and learn about what is happening in the world of dusty museums and flying masterpieces. Formumites are a wide ranging collection of enthusiasts, plane snappers, pro toggies, pilots, volunteer maintainers, professional engineers, students, lecturers, plane owners, retired professionals… Sadly over the years a small number of formumites have taken this place way too seriously and become over zealous with their responses and comments, becoming quite spiteful at times. As a result we have lost a number of pilots, plane owners historians and other generally knowledgeable individuals. We are all the poorer as a result for the loss of conversation and knowledge. Moderators have a challenging task and some do it more effectively than others. There have been many scandals, numerous toys flung from prams, some serious flouncing, new cliques form and old cliques fizzle and yes new forumites come and go.

Since I first visited here as a lurker early in 2003 much has changed with high quality digital photography and terabits of knowledge now available via search engines rather than just archives, libraries, museums and personal memories. This is a rich place of knowledge and interest spoilt by a few. I’ve taken to ignoring the obvious trolls and try hard to understand the difference between an idiot and a novice before responding to a common point of interest. I don’t know what the ratio should be between a post of interest and the numerous daft responses that follow but it would be nice to see people think twice rather than posting something for the sake of it.

Mark12 is possibly flattered by the requests to return and share his knowledge and opinions. I know only a little of the unsavoury happenings that took place here and am saddened that it was allowed to develop as it did. Its a message board and situations such as this so often happen. Perhaps after a passing of time Peter will return, or maybe he’ll find other things to do. Fortunately much of his knowledge is now available through the search function on here, his books and via the internet. 🙂

I can hear Bob Mortimer now.. ‘You wouldn’t let it lie’…

Seriously, let’s move on. I only briefly interacted with Peter on here, mainly by PM. He was courteous and helpful, especially when it cane to steering me, as a relative newbie and know-nothing, gently away from dangerous waters. In that spirit, let those who remain talk about old aeroplanes, please!

I asked once but didn’t get a straight response. Who had it in for Peter?

I shall get my coat. 🙂

Otter be aware you are not allowed to mention the word “buried” and a certain famous fighter in the same post or this thread will be locked,:D

Are you insinuating there are burried Spitfires in Panama ;).

I heard rumours he and Moggy are busy removing their stashes from some place called Panama?

Seconded…

All those in favour?

29,770 for and two against. The ayes have it Mr Speaker.

Quote Originally Posted by Newforest View Post
Some posters should read Mod.Peter’s post ‘ About Quote Abuse’

Agreed:angel:

Seconded…

All those in favour?

Yes I miss Peter but its up to him what he does. Still If I don’t like a reply or am annoyed by it I laugh and put it behind me. I may have grown a thicker skin over my 71 years!

BTW Just as an aside What would have happened in 1940 when that beastly Mr Hitler called us names and the RAF ran and hid and refused to play?

Some posters should read Mod.Peter’s post ‘ About Quote Abuse‘ 😉

Agreed:angel:

Some posters should read Mod.Peter’s post ‘ About Quote Abuse‘ 😉

The number 73 bus is nothing more than a myth :dev2:.

Bob T.

Many people in Stoke Newington would agree with you! Now they know why took a wrong turning at The Angel.:D