A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

RE: Tom wrote

A scouser Moggy? Does that mean I shouldn’t let on where the nice, shiny plaque is going to be? LOL.

Yes Tom, Raymond Lallemand is still alive, and well. I saw him last year (though he disappeared somewhere) at Duxford. Still active and fit from what I hear. In fact, I think about 15 609 Sqn Typhoon era bods are still with us, and two (Joe Atkinson and Janusz Zurakowski) from the Spit era. I am rather jealous of your position re: the Tempest V – any chance of it flying at Legends once done? I live in hope…

To my knowledge, no decorations were awarded for this action (on the RAF’s side!) . Jean De Selys Longchamps died with 3 Sqn on August 16th 1943, but the others all survived the war. Lallemand ended the war with the DFC and Bar, and De Selys with the DFC. To my knowledge Polek was never decorated, and nor was Payne. A normal working day for 609…..

RE: Tom wrote

“I’m just wondering where yourself and Moggy are both from?”

Proud to say I’m a thoroughbred scouser.

I now live in the most beautiful part of our beautiful country at the conjunction of Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire. Almost exactly on the spot where F15s heading back to Lakenheath tighten up their formation prior to the run & break.

Moggy

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Thanks for putting that lot up Snapper,sounds like it was a pretty fierce encounter.Were any decorations recommended as a result of this action?It certainly sounds as though Polek would have been deserving of something for his skill and tenacity.

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Yet more good work there Snapper, well done. I work down in Bucks, currently on Kermit’s Tempest V, but I’m originally from close to West Raynham (probably where the obsession with anything plane like originated from). Aside from that, I noticed the name Lallemand in the report you posted. He is still alive so I’m informed and was a regular 609 bod, I’ll try to get some more info.

Tom 😉

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Found this, scanned as a jpeg, on a CD that I had kicking around that a friend sent a few months back. Have typed up for you lot. Enjoy!

INTELLIGENCE FORM “F”
COMBAT REPORT

609 Squadron Manston
Battle of the M.T.B

F/O Payne F/O Lallemand F/O De Selys F/O Polek F/Sgt Haddon Sgt Wiseman

A. 14/2/43
B. 609 (West Riding) Sqdn
C. Typhoons 1B
D. 1150, 1200, 1210 hours
E. Between Dover and Gris Nez
F. 10/10ths cloud at 1000ft, 500ft thick
G. 1 Typhoon Cat.B 2 Typhoons Cat E
H. F/Sgt Haddon and Sgt Wiseman missing believed killed
J. 4 Fw190’s destroyed 3 Fw190’s probable

609 Squadron was detailed to supply sections to patrol in defence of an M.T.B lying between Dover and Gris Nez disabled after striking hidden wreckage. Altogether 3 sections, of 2 Typhoons, were involved, taking off between 1030 and 1145. The first section (F/Sgt Haddon and Sgt Wiseman) left at 1030 and both pilots failed to return. The skipper of the M.T.B reported that he saw the 2 Typhoons flying at 500ft in line astern, 1000yds apart. 2 Fw190’s then bounced the second Typhoon and it crashed in flames, they then attacked the first Typhoon and cut off both the wings, this Typhoon also crashed into the sea.

The remaining 4 Typhoons shot down 7 Fw190’s destroyed, or probably destroyed and prevented any further attacks on the M.T.B

F/O Lallemand (Belg) and F/O Polek (Polish) left Manston 1129 on defensive patrol and were then vectored to the position of the M.T.B Flying at 300ft they sighted 4 Fw190’s in square formation, on the deck and heading W. Typhoon’s attacked and the 190’s split up, there was a dogfight. On his first burst from astern Lallemand saw no result. After various gyrations he saw Polek chasing a 190 with another 190 behind him and firing. Lallemand approached from the beam and fired at the 190 behind Polek, obtaining hits on the cockpit. Lallemand almost rammed the enemy aircraft which crashed into the sea. Polek meantime had fired at a 190 while it was turning and diving, and then gave it a long burst as it climbed. The 190 poured thick white smoke and made cloud at such a low rate that Polek, following, was at stalling point. Polek believes the pilot was dead as he made no attempt to evade or avoid stalling.
Our two pilots then rejoined and continued patrol for about 10 minutes near Gris Nez when Swingate reported bandits approaching them from the east. Presently 4 Fw190’s were seen, again in 2 pairs and flying parallel, ahead and to port. Typhoon’s and 190’s all climbed and orbited. F/O Lallemand reports he had no trouble in out turning them. With the leading pair turning on a parallel course to port, he fired at one of the second pair from 15 degrees and it turned on its back. Whilst it was inverted he fired again from above, seeing strikes on its belly. As he overshot the e/a was still inverted, travelling at great speed in a dive from 300ft. He believes it went straight into the sea. (It is requested that if the evidence is considered sufficient, this claim be stepped up to Destroyed). Lallemand then fired a full beam shot at the second E/A of the pair from 350-400 yds, E/A dived and to his surprise burst into flames – Polek saw it go in. Polek himself got on the tail of another E/A (presumably one of the leading pair). This made a sharp climbing turn and Polek fired from the quarter at 100yds range shortly before the E/A reached cloud and he had to break away as the fourth E/A was on his tail. Though he saw no results of his fire, Lallemand saw this E/A flying slowly along the coast below cliff level, losing height and pouring blue-black smoke. (Claim:- probably destroyed) The 2 Typhoons landed Manston at 1217hrs.

F/O De Selys (Belg) and F/O Payne (airborne 1145-1233) hearing E/A reported, and knowing the other section of Typhoons were with M.T.B’s decided first on the wide sweep towards Calais from West, then down the French Coast to Gris Nez. As they were approaching Calais, and turning south, they were attacked by 3 Fw190’s flying North. The shooting missed and De Selys, warning his No.2 behind, turned sharply – observing the third E/A to be continuing North – the second was flying inland over Calais and the third was finishing a wide turn.
F/O De Selys engaged this third E/A in a head on attack, opening fire as he closed to 700 yes and seeing the E/A catch fire as it flashed overhead. Turning, he saw it stall at 300ft and spin into the sea about half a mile off Calais. Fire from the 190 had hit De Selys’ aircraft in the wings.

F/O Payne chased a 190 up into cloud and lost him. On re-emerging from cloud, off Calais, he saw 2 Fw190’s behind another a/c which he thought was De Selys and called a warning (De Selys was not in the area at that moment). The 2 E/A’s broke away however and climbed up into cloud over France. Payne followed and above cloud found himself 350 yds behind the starboard E/A. Opening fire from a slight angle he saw many strikes on the starboard wing and flames from the side of the fuselage. The 190 turned right and fell away into cloud still on fire. The other 190 turned left and was not seen again despite a search below cloud.

The two Typhoons met up over the Channel and returned to base.

Enemy Aircraft Camouflage.
The first quartet of 190’s were painted very dark, with black crosses on the wings, without white outline and no crosses on the fuselage.
The second quartet were a light grey with grey-blue bellies, yellow fins, a yellow band round the rear of the fuselage, and a yellow stripe running from leading to trailing edge, halfway along the wing. One of them also had a yellow arrowhead on the fuselage, and had the lower half of the fuselage painted black fro exhaust to cockpit. One of the final 190’s appeared black from the plan view.

4 Fw190’s destroyed.
2 Fw190’s probables.

F/Sgt Haddon and Sgt Wiseman, missing believed killed.

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

I’m in Lowestoft now. My dad was born in Aylsham, and I grew up in Haddiscoe (I was born abroad). No Idea about Moggy! I’m a true Norfolk boy though.

When I get an idea into my carrot-crunching turnip-head, I tend to run with it. I haven’t as yet managed to track down the parish council though. When I phoned BBMF they siad that they don’t start flying until May, so no Spitfire. However, they can arrange (Strike Command handles all this stuff) other aircraft. This got me thinking – I know a chap who knows a chap. Anyone seen a new Typhoon flying?! Lets hope tomorrow brings positive e-mail responses…..!!

Any excuse for a party me.

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Well done Snapper, you’ve achieved lots on this subject in a very short time, highly commendable. I’m just wondering where yourself and Moggy are both from? as I’m a Norfolk lad myself and I’m always pleased to hear from others from my part of the world 🙂 If you need a hand with anything regarding the plaque I’d be glad to help one weekend as long as the wee lass will let me out 😉

Tom 😉

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Well done Snapper,

I’d be proud to have achieved that much.

Regards

Moggy

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Here’s a starting point. This is in the Great Yarmouth Mercury today (Friday 15th November). I must say that I find “personal battle” to be a bit strong / lyrical I think, but hey – its out there. Lets just hope that it has the desired effect, and gets me some more info on John, finds some relatives, and gets a memorial in place.
Attachments:

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-11-02 AT 06:34 PM (GMT)]Well, here’s what I’ve been able to glean from my library etc today, written up for your pleasure!. There are actually four pilots from the squadron (at the time Johnny was on it’s strength) that are still alive. With added bits to make it publishable, this is off to the papers tomorrow. Fingers crossed on getting the ball rolling!

1333551 Sergeant John George ‘Johnny’ Wiseman.

Sergeant ‘Johnny’ Wiseman, the son of Percy Edwin and Hilda Marjorie Wiseman, was from a small Norfolk Village called Ashby-with-Oby. During World War Two, he trained as a pilot, being posted to 609 (West Riding) Squadron in 1942 to fly fighters. (Incidentally, Johnny is seen in the Boulting Brothers PR film ‘Between Friends’, where their Flight Commander Joe Atkinson says “That’s Johnny, he’s from Yarmouth, where they catch herrings you know!”)

On the day of his death it was ‘A’ flights turn to come to readiness, and Johnny took off as one-half of Red Section in perfect flying weather from RAF Manston in Kent. Also patrolling was Yellow Section, consisting of the Belgian (and future Commanding Officer) Raymond ‘Cheval’ Lallemand and Polish pilot ‘Tony’ Polek. Their mission was to protect some Royal Navy Motor Torpedo Boats in difficulties close to the French coast. During the night, the MTB’s had been making a nuisance of themselves around the French ports, and one was now lying disabled in the Straits of Dover off Cap Gris-Nez. With dawn breaking, and still in range of the German coastal artillery, attempts were made to tow it to safety, as the men on board were now at the mercy of the German Luftwaffe who would surely soon appear.

Sergeant Wiseman and Flight Sergeant Haddon were tasked with the job of close escort, while Lallemand and Polek patrolled close by, ready to help if needed. Then bad luck struck the Navy. The cable used to tow the stricken vessel snapped (though they were now fortunately out of range of the guns). With the boats now stationary, Wiseman and Haddon could do no more than circle relentlessly around them. It was around this time that contact was lost between Red Section and Bill Igoe (the Sector Controller at RAF Biggin Hill) and Yellow Section (who were now Mid-Channel)

At around 1100 hrs on 14th February 1943, Johnny was shot down whilst flying Hawker Typhoon R7872 PR-S, by a Focke-Wulf FW190 of III/JG2. This same Focke-Wulf also shot down Flight Sergeant Alan ‘Babe’ Haddon, who was flying Hawker Typhoon DN294 PR-O. The Captain of the immobile MTB was later to tell ‘Cheval’ Lallemand that the Focke-Wulfs had come up on the Typhoons just above sea level, and unable to give a warning to the pilots they could only watch as one aircraft was seen to go down in flames, while the other folded up ‘like a book’ and also crashed into the sea.

Shortly afterwards, Yellow Section engaged the first of two flights of four German fighters, altogether claiming two Focke-Wulfs confirmed destroyed and one probable, with Polek (in his first combat) claiming two probables. They were then joined by fellow 609 Squadron pilots Roy Payne and another Belgian, Jean De Selys Longchamps, who proceeded to destroy another FW190 apiece off Calais.

The Nine O’ Clock News that night announced: “In the course of defensive patrols over the English Channel, Typhoons of Fighter Command destroyed five Focke-Wulf 190’s, the latest type of German fighter. Two of our pilots failed to return.”

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-11-02 AT 10:37 AM (GMT)]Success. I’ve just spoken to the area manager of my local Timpson’s Key Cutting / Shoe Repairing shop (local branch being Lowestoft). Timpsons have agreed to supply and engrave a brass plaque (I’m looking at 10” x 8” with text and Squadron Badge) for free. That is a fantastic contribution to the fund, and a great kick start! Now to find out about plinths – no idea who makes / supplies them, but then I can always make a mould and fill it with concrete myself, a 6ft (got to bury part) concrete post isn’t rocket science. Then I guess it’s down to getting permission from Parish, Local, and district Councils to put it in place. That would be the time consuming bit I guess! I suppose I should really double check that there is no memorial anywhere, but then why should I let that stop me…..!

Best I aim for the 60th anniversary, 14th February 2003. Details of the action are in both ‘Under The White Rose’ by Frank Ziegler and ‘Rendezvous With Fate’ by Raymond Lallemand. I will write it all up later, because I’m going to need it for the papers anyway. After he and ‘Babe’ Haddon were shot down, Lallemand and Tony Polek went up, followed by Roy Payne and Jean De Selys. Lallemand and Payne are both still alive, so I may be able to get some info about Johnny from them. The Squadron Association has nothing more than I already have on Johnny, but his service records are a good idea, as is the local press – an appeal for relatives and information is planned anyway, through an article, with the EDP, Great Yarmouth Mercury, and Great Yarmouth and Gorleston Advertiser (with luck they will all run it). I think I shall submit to Flypast and Aeroplane Monthly too, and the RAF news. I also looked at the 1901 census (it works now at last!) and there were a few names for Wiseman’s born in Ashby-With-Oby (probably including his father) on there, so it’s quite likely that I will find some relatives. In addition, quite out of the blue, I bumped into my old Platoon Commander (I was in the TA for a while) at a funeral on Friday – it turns out that he is now an officer in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force and based at Marham. An Honour guard is called for I think….. Sudden thought: BBMF flypast?

I’d better stop for now, as I always get carried away. If any of you have further idea’s on how to cut through the red tape, how to jazz the ceremony up etc, please let me know.

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 10-11-02 AT 03:11 PM (GMT)]Hey Snapper,

You might have odd ideas about women, but when it comes to the real stuff you are right on the beam.

I should think the local (parish) council would be a good place to start, but I expect all you get from them will be a ‘We’d love to do it, but we can’t afford it.’

My next step would be the local press, including everything from the local free sheets to the EDP. You might even like to post something on the forum there, which will make a great change from the guy who wants to scrap all our Apaches and replace them with a fleet of thousands of Wallis Autogyros (Honest). www.edp24.co.uk

Don’t forget the local radio stations too. You could find yourself becoming a local celebrity. And look, you’ve got a 60th anniversary coming up on Valentine’s day next year. That must make good copy. Work up to a crescendo for this date, then repeat it next armistice day.

Also don’t forget the local MP, they always want to look good (Neat trick if they can manage it)

You’ll never do it alone, but if you can mobilise public opinion you might find more happens.

I’m not far away if you need any help.

Moggy

RE: A surprise on Remembrance Sunday.

Mark.

A worthy suggestion. Here’s a few ideas which might help a bit.
Firstly, write to the Air Historical Branch of the MOD, the address will be listed below. They may be able to give you a shortened version of his service history. There is a personnel branch which I believe is at RAF Innsworth in Gloucestershire who will provide a service history for £25. This is usually only available to family members but you might be able to get round that. Find which local newspaper covered the area where he was from at the time of his death. There may well be an article about his death in their archives. Also check if there is a local history centre who may be able to help.

Another idea may be to write to any Wiseman in the phone book for that area, explain what you’re doing and see what happens. You might just drop lucky. You could also try a search using any of the major genealogy sites (do a google search) as some of them have message boards which might be able to help with the search for Wiseman.

All I can say is go for it and good luck, I wish you success.

That address is:
Air Historical Branch,
Ministry of Defence,
Building 266,
RAF Bentley Priory,
Stanmore,
Middlesex.
HA7 3HH
Tel. 0208 838 7839

Hpoe this helps.

Regards,

kev35