Adopting the U.S.As 2nd Amendment

What about the philosophical view? That a citizen has the right (not just the privilege!) to defend his life and property and that of those he chose to associate with? And that only a subject is denied that right and has to relinquish it to his overlord? Well, then the U.K. is not a Republic …

On the practical side, a criminal/thug/punk will always find a way to get a weapon or weaponize an item if his mind is already set on hurting or killing people who oppose his actions. Meaning a law-abiding disarmed citizen will be at a disadvantage since he doesn’t have the same mindset. And if a law-abiding citizen is acquiring an “illegal” weapon he has a hard time training regularily.

One can debate if the public security is already so bad that handguns/knives/tasers/&c are advisable on the streets (at least in some areas), but there should certainly be no restrictions on firearm ownership for home defence purposes.

“If put to the vote away from millitary style hobby forums i think you would find that no one wants more guns available “

Since neither you nor any of us has the remotest idea, your comment is probably wishful thinking as much as anything else.

In any case the likelihood of an objective response to the question, however that was phrased, is remote.

That is the problem with this whole debate. A distinct lack of objectivity.

tornado.

tornado, you inhabit a very strange world when viewed in comparison to the majority of us. It’s your choice, I’m just glad that I don’t live in that world.

Regards,

kev35

or me in yours !! yours seems to be a very bitter and twisted one where only your views matter

if put to the vote away from millitary style hobby forums i think you would find that no one wants more guns available

the incident that happened was 100% true

and just because you have seen things quite a few times does not for one minuite mean things cannot happen difrently occasionaly

i have seen the lad mentioned fit many times ( each time difrent with difrent circumstances )

the world is not a convenient place where everything happens as happened before !!

I also tend to the view that a crininal will always aquire the weapon he/she needs by fair means or foul. And the laws of the land will always be circumvented if necessary. Hence my earlier criticism of the kneejerk reaction to events in Dunblane and then Hungerford, where, in any case, the guns used were licensed.

I still stand by my #71 in the Gun Hobby companion thread to this one.

tornado.

I’m really no longer sure that we can take anything you say with anything other than a pinch of salt. Your logic, and your stories, have so many holes in them as to make them little more than entertainment. An example….

i’ll end with a little tale !! many years ago my next door neighbour had a lad run towards her with wild eyes with his had raised agressive looking looking in all intents that he was going to assault her !!

That doesn’t resemble any epileptic siezure I have ever witnessed and I’ve seen hundreds. Do you mean he had his hands raised or his head? What makes you say he was aggressive looking? It’s all rubbish really isn’t it?

he was eppeleptic and having a fit at the time and was one of the softest most sociable gentlemen i have ever met

so you were this woman’s next door neighbour and you knew the man having the siezure to be as you describe above. Yet she didn’t? A man who ends up lying twitching and shaking on the floor is a threat?

it was his last couple of steps and fall with the forward movement that her and others around her wrongly interpreted as him running towards her and being a threat !!

God help her if she ever comes across someone having a heart attack in the street, she’d probably call the SAS instead of an ambulance.

a close friend still has ptsd from killing argies in the falklands

Your friend, understandably, is traumatised by his experiences in the Falklands, yet you don’t even have the respect to call them Argentinians?

tornado, you inhabit a very strange world when viewed in comparison to the majority of us. It’s your choice, I’m just glad that I don’t live in that world.

Regards,

kev35

Given that you’ve already told us that the law demands that legal firearms must be kept in a secure cabinet that is subject to Police inspection, I’m struggling to see how they could make any difference to “street” gun crime for good or for ill.

I agree with J Boyle.

There, I said it. 😉

you couldn’t , the fact is that most criminals firearms are ” illegal ” and i realy couldn’t care less about people spouting things like gun cabinets

that in itself is a falicy if a crimminal wants something he will get it !

i used to work installing security shutters and attended more than my fair share of burglaries where thieves were intent

i once attended one where the security shutters were oxy acetelened , window smashed , a brick wall knocked down , and a safe taken with them

if a crimminal is realy after your guns he will not care about them being in a gun safe

he will simply take the gun safe and work on that problem later at his liesure !!

I think you’ll find that guncrime has become much worse since the banning of handguns.

the biggest problem with that is that there is no proof how much worse it would have been if we had not banned them ….

but common sense and reality tells you that it would have been !!

as another correctly pointed out earlier , if you have a problem with your house burning down bringing more petrol is not a solution

presently most burglers etc do not carry weapons , they usualy prefer doing it whilst the home owner is out

watch that change if we addopted americas ideas

I think you’ll find that guncrime has become much worse since the banning of handguns.

Given that you’ve already told us that the law demands that legal firearms must be kept in a secure cabinet that is subject to Police inspection, I’m struggling to see how they could make any difference to “street” gun crime for good or for ill.

I agree with J Boyle.

There, I said it. 😉

We seem to be able to live without having a gun within 2 feet of wherever we are, but it’s the impression I get when on the 2 USA gun forums is that a gun over there is as essential as their next breath.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Don’t think that all American live “within 2 feet” of a firearm. :rolleyes:
I live in the country and only one of my neighbors has a firearm, and that’s a hunting rifle. Likewise, friends who live in the city don’t own any either.

If you’re looking on American pro-gun forums you’re getting a skewed view of America. I’ll take a wild guess and say they have a higher precentage of gun ownership than the general population and more strident views on the matter than many Americans.

As a former cop, I’d assume you’re smart enough to know that the results you get depend upon where you look…(I hope 🙂 )

It would be like an American looking at this forum assuming every English person was besotted with Spitfires and knew the parts count by heart.
Likewise,even though I go onto a UK vintage car forum I realize not everyone in the UK drives a old Bentley or Lotus and does their morning prayers facing Brooklands.

Well since firearms legally have to be kept in a police inspected locker – I suggest that would put paid to a lot of thefts.

I know ive not been in my job long, but in the year and a half ive been in my job ive not once come accross a burglary involving the theft of a firearm.

I know that any theft of firearms is seriously investigated and has to go through my control room inspector.

I cannot see where you seem to have an idea that guns will be stockpiled everywhere and left around the house next to the milk :confused:

I think you’ll find that guncrime has become much worse since the banning of handguns.

You had to have a license for them before they were banned and the few cases I can think of(hungerford being the one that sticks in my mind) the firearms used were legally licensed.hungerford , dunblane and the cumbria shootings were all legaly owned firearms , massed shootings seem to be legaly held weapons whilst crimminals are usualy just happy shooting each other over drugs arguments etc !!

Like CRB checks, im sure all of those people who apply for firearms licenses are checked by the local police force (pnc etc)

If they were a violent criminal they wouldnt get one but at the same time, any hardened violent criminal would know exactly where to purchase an illegal firearm anyway!!

I dont think its a bad thing and honeslty I dont think things would change that much.

a large percentage of guns must have come from somewhere !! it is fair to say a lot are imported

but it is fair to say a lot will be stolen in burglaries or from vehicles !!

i realy cannot see the screwed up logic that putting more guns out there will solve a problem , even a halfwit can understand more water comming into a sinking ship isn’t a good idea !!

it was his last couple of steps and fall with the forward movement that her and others around her wrongly interpreted as him running towards her and being a threat !!

the point being not everything is always as it first seems and even experienced day to day intensively trained firearms teams screw up

what we are suggesting is an accountant from essex is allowed to cary what amounts to instant death , that may devote an hour a month on a range ( if that in most cases )

a close friend still has ptsd from killing argies in the falklands

no matter how tough you think you are!! or how much you know you were in the right !!

killing another human will haunt you for the rest of your life !!

if not you are on a level with the scum you shot !!

Interesting.

I’ve never yet seen an epileptic able to run whilst having a seizure. I’ve seen them range from vacancies to full blown Grand Mal’s, but I’ve never seen an epileptic sprint while fitting.

Regards,

kev35

I cant understand the idea that allowing members of the public to have guns again means that everyone is going to go round murdering people :confused:

You had to have a license for them before they were banned and the few cases I can think of(hungerford being the one that sticks in my mind) the firearms used were legally licensed.

Like CRB checks, im sure all of those people who apply for firearms licenses are checked by the local police force (pnc etc)

If they were a violent criminal they wouldnt get one but at the same time, any hardened violent criminal would know exactly where to purchase an illegal firearm anyway!!

I dont think its a bad thing and honeslty I dont think things would change that much.

god willing there have only been 3 times in my life where an american would have deemed it necessary to have a gun for defence

1 a young couple sneaked in an already broken window in a large victorian house where i used to live ( my responsibility realy as i should have repaired it ) the most they were probably doing was stopping out of the rain on a foul night and by the looks of them were more intrested in having sex than nicking anything !!

thank god i didn’t have the right to have a gun the jumpiness of the situation in the pitch dark could have seen a young innocent teenager dead !!

no 2 i was once mugged ( jumped from the rear ) there was no time to even think about drawing a gun the most i could do was swing my fist and break his nose !!

and lastly 3 i was set about by a small gang of youths in the town centre again a gun would have been a hopeless case as there were too many others about

and there is the big thing with guns in the heat of the moment can you be sure you will shoot the correct person ???

i’ll end with a little tale !! many years ago my next door neighbour had a lad run towards her with wild eyes with his had raised agressive looking looking in all intents that he was going to assault her !!
it is a probability that if armed her or someone close to the scene would probably raised a gun , if not indeed shot him

he was eppeleptic and having a fit at the time and was one of the softest most sociable gentlemen i have ever met

remember even highly trained officers make mistakes with firearms !!

do i want any member of the public to have one with scant training ??

like hell i do !!

Personally, I don’t think we need more guns in this country, especially when people of my age are already walking around streets with a gun or knife if their possession with in the intention of murder …

Yeah, god forbid you have the means to defend yourself..

Yes, we know you’re against more guns.

And the crime figures on the other thread show we’ve got good reason to be. Not being facetious here at all but can you explain why with a population just five times that of the UK, the US has 22 times more murders or 190 times more gun murders? Does the right to bear arms mean there are more murders or fewer? Overall, does the right to bear arms make the average US citizen safer or not?

Regards,

kev35

Personally, I don’t think we need more guns in this country, especially when people of my age are already walking around streets with a gun or knife if their possession with in the intention of murder …

John, it was a serious post to see what the reaction from members would be, nothing more, nothing less. We seem to be able to live without having a gun within 2 feet of wherever we are, but it’s the impression I get when on the 2 USA gun forums is that a gun over there is as essential as their next breath.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

What if our Government gave us the same 2nd Amendment as our USA cousins.
Now it’s our turn.Myself,NO, but don’t let my opinion sway you.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Jim

Aren’t you setting up a straw man argument?
I’ve never heard anyone call for Second Amendment-like gun rights (or even a constitution) in the UK.

Yes, we know you’re against more guns.