aeroplane may 2006 whirlwind database

Mr BlueSky,

I’ve just updated my email address in the user profile area since I had forgotten to do this since coming to Oz. So if you have already sent a copy, you will have to send it again. Apologies.

Thanks
Steve.

Hi MrBlueSky, I’ve been collecting info on the Whirlwind to produce one for the flight sim X-plane, but some drawings like these you posted would be an immense help and far better than any I have at present. Any chance of a decent resolution copy?

Thanks

Steve

Yeah sure, I’ve got a scan of the ‘Mike Keep’ Drawings which are the best and most accurate to date! I hope you are on BroadBand as the file is quite large! I’ll send you some other photo’s that show the error in more detail.

Regards

Mr BlueSky

”and the drawings on page 61 look a bit suspect.

side profile C , the cockpit side walls curve to the top of the joint with the wings, but to be fair most i have seen do this,
but from wartime drawings AP , and stuff at the NA,& photos, it seems to be straight down, bit hard to explain , but if anyone wants the drawings ( AP & NA ) mail me and i will send them, it is easier to see, ( but i can’t mail until about tue/wed )”

Jerry, is this what you mean…

Hi MrBlueSky, I’ve been collecting info on the Whirlwind to produce one for the flight sim X-plane, but some drawings like these you posted would be an immense help and far better than any I have at present. Any chance of a decent resolution copy?

Thanks

Steve

Hi
looks like the first two numbers of serial are reversed, should be P6982 this was with 263 Sq first , then to 137Sq , SF-S, dec 41 to may 42, bases were Matlaske, detachments Snailwell & Drem.
cheers
Jerry

Cheers Jerry, correction already done

serial

Never knew the Yanks operated the Whirlwind. (One Thing you may be able to help me with here Jerry, was this aircraft at Coltishall or Matlask in 1941-42 with 137 Sqn. It’s one of the things I never got to check up on thanks to the suicide bombers).

Hi
looks like the first two numbers of serial are reversed, should be P6982 this was with 263 Sq first , then to 137Sq , SF-S, dec 41 to may 42, bases were Matlaske, detachments Snailwell & Drem.
cheers
Jerry

Hi,
Looks good, might give it a try one day, always wanted to try it out, to see what P6994 supposedly looked like, apparently it was repainted in late 42, in the USA, not being an expert on US navy colours, but it was ‘light grey’ lower, ‘blue grey’ top colour, with a wavy demarcation line between the two ( supposedly like some bomber command wellingtons but a lot lower down near to the raf demarcation line ) , RAF type ‘C’ fin flash , sky spinners and the US star, ( but only blue circle with white star ).
Of course this is purely from a mix of research from recollections / memories told to me and sadly no photos exist, or none that I have been able to find yet, so far only traced witnesses to it being in the US,( i.e. groundcrew / pilots ).
I haven’t been able to piece together wether it was repainted for the US air force, when they took it over in ’44.
P6994 was reported to be overall grey at one time, but not sure if it was this period (’44) , or when it was being repainted for the US Navy.
P.S. thanks for the replies.
Cheers
Jerry

Never knew the Yanks operated the Whirlwind. (One Thing you may be able to help me with here Jerry, was this aircraft at Coltishall or Matlask in 1941-42 with 137 Sqn. It’s one of the things I never got to check up on thanks to the suicide bombers).

Hi,
Looks good, might give it a try one day, always wanted to try it out, to see what P6994 supposedly looked like, apparently it was repainted in late 42, in the USA, not being an expert on US navy colours, but it was ‘light grey’ lower, ‘blue grey’ top colour, with a wavy demarcation line between the two ( supposedly like some bomber command wellingtons but a lot lower down near to the raf demarcation line ) , RAF type ‘C’ fin flash , sky spinners and the US star, ( but only blue circle with white star ).
Of course this is purely from a mix of research from recollections / memories told to me and sadly no photos exist, or none that I have been able to find yet, so far only traced witnesses to it being in the US,( i.e. groundcrew / pilots ).
I haven’t been able to piece together wether it was repainted for the US air force, when they took it over in ’44.
P6994 was reported to be overall grey at one time, but not sure if it was this period (’44) , or when it was being repainted for the US Navy.
P.S. thanks for the replies.
Cheers
Jerry

HINTS ON DOING PROFILES

Wish I new more on doing profile and drawings on the computer, I would make the time to do some.
Must go I could go on forever otherwise…….
Cheers
Jerry

Hi Jerry

I do the original in CorelDraw as kind of patchwork quilt (I use weld, intersection and trim commands to turn a blank outline of the aircraft into the patchwork ensuring that one object does not overlap any others. (If they do, it causes problems after exporting (you get single pixle lines if you don’t that are a pain to clean up). All lines hidden (drawing must be less than 4800 pixels, (just below than A3 size)). Export it as a 24 bit windows bitmap (full size, correct colours, 24 bit, anti-alise OFF, no compression). I then use PhotoShop to Finnish it off (Items to note on this program are Layers, Paths (fill and stroke), Transparent setting, Brush sizes, Air Brush pressure (I use 10% for Panel lines and 3% for shading) and layer effects (embossed for panels at 135 Degrees, depth 3, blur 3). Use the magic wand to select the parts of the patch you want to work on, and different layers to do the Colours / shading. The Whirlwind here is made up of a number of layers Master Colour – Props and cockpit bits, dark grey, Sky bosses, Medium sea grey the rest. Next layer Cammo Ocean Grey. Next Layer Dark Green. Next Layer Markings. Next layer panel lines. Next Layer White Highlight. Next Layer Black Shade. Next layer wing and tail under shade. Next three layers Window colour (semi transparent) and highlight and shade. last with the correct layer effect Wires and Rigging (multi layers for bi-planes)

The start and the end result attached. All you need to be able to do now is be able to draw the thing in the first place.

I found all the comments by 25Sq pilots strange and in opposition to the RAE pilots comments, and strangely the whirlwind was used for night intruder ops later in the war, but then I suppose to transfer from a two crew a/c to a much advanced single seater was ‘a bit different’, good job they had herc beau’s and not merlin’s ….

Beau IIf, NASTY BEAST, as 255 Squadron found out.

Hi
most interesting didn’t know there was a book on 25Sq, any chance of further info , ISBN etc,
25Sq had three whirlwinds L6845, P6966, P6967, and a master was transfered in to help the pilots convert,( haven’t found serial of this master a/c yet )
Does the book name the pilots ? I have :-
MacEwen,Lambert,Ker-Ramsey,Bull,Lyall,Walker,Miley,Monk,Smith.
Also does it mention codes ? I have seen one wartime written reference, that seemed to imply that the whirlwinds had the letter ‘ZK ‘ applied but no individual a/c I/D letter, and I was verbally told this once also, but have so far been unable to cast iron prove it.
I found all the comments by 25Sq pilots strange and in opposition to the RAE pilots comments, and strangely the whirlwind was used for night intruder ops later in the war, but then I suppose to transfer from a two crew a/c to a much advanced single seater was ‘a bit different’, good job they had herc beau’s and not merlin’s ….
One other strange thing I found is I never have seen any 25 Sq photos, you would think that with a new a/c there would be loads of photos taken …..
cheers
jerry

Jerry

Book is Hawks Rising, The Eighty-Five Year History of No 25 (Fighter) Squadron Royal Air Force by Francis K Mason. Published by Air Britain Historians Ltd in 2001. ISBN 0 85130 307 2.

DO NOT BOTHER BUYING THIS BOOK IF INTERESTED IN WHIRLWINDS OR MORE IMPORTANTLY BLOODHOUND!!!

The only reference to the Whirlwind in the book is in the Squadron Aircraft appendices at the back and guts of that I put the last post. Only the one aircraft listed and there is no other information on the type in the whole book. The Bloodhound was operated by the unit for over 25 years. Only six pages about it in 278 total, The first three slagging off Duncan Sandys and the 1957 defence review. A hell of a lot of other errors abound throughout the rest of the chapter (Papa Lima will back me up on this one as he worked on it, Type 87 ‘STINGRAY’ Radar ????) I jest not. I will not list the rest, wrong thread for it.

Whirlwind Drawings

Did the factory drawings for the Whirlwind survive and is there a source for copies?

Whirlwind cockpit area detail

Here is the relevant part of the Mike Badrocke cutaway drawing (in the Aeroplane article, page 67). There seems to be a curve on all the associated formers, but that could be the mistake you are pointing out!

[QUOTE=Papa Lima]It would be nice if you had the time and inclination to write a similar but fully correct article for Flypast magazine . . .
I for one would greatly appreciate it!

Hi
It has crossed my mind a few times…
Cheers
Jerry

comments

25 Sqn Whirlwind was L6845 (2nd Prototype) delivered to the Sqn for Service Trials at North Weald in May 1940. Aircraft was flown by 9 pilots during daylight hours and 5 at night (including a limited firing of the cannon during the night trials). The type was slated for its poor handing in night landings and the muzzle flash when cannon was fired at night (destroyed pilots night vision). My source of info. Hawks Rising the story of 25 Sqn RAF.

Hi
most interesting didn’t know there was a book on 25Sq, any chance of further info , ISBN etc,
25Sq had three whirlwinds L6845, P6966, P6967, and a master was transfered in to help the pilots convert,( haven’t found serial of this master a/c yet )
Does the book name the pilots ? I have :-
MacEwen,Lambert,Ker-Ramsey,Bull,Lyall,Walker,Miley,Monk,Smith.
Also does it mention codes ? I have seen one wartime written reference, that seemed to imply that the whirlwinds had the letter ‘ZK ‘ applied but no individual a/c I/D letter, and I was verbally told this once also, but have so far been unable to cast iron prove it.
I found all the comments by 25Sq pilots strange and in opposition to the RAE pilots comments, and strangely the whirlwind was used for night intruder ops later in the war, but then I suppose to transfer from a two crew a/c to a much advanced single seater was ‘a bit different’, good job they had herc beau’s and not merlin’s ….
One other strange thing I found is I never have seen any 25 Sq photos, you would think that with a new a/c there would be loads of photos taken …..
cheers
jerry

cockpit

”and the drawings on page 61 look a bit suspect.

side profile C , the cockpit side walls curve to the top of the joint with the wings, but to be fair most i have seen do this,
but from wartime drawings AP , and stuff at the NA,& photos, it seems to be straight down, bit hard to explain , but if anyone wants the drawings ( AP & NA ) mail me and i will send them, it is easier to see, ( but i can’t mail until about tue/wed )”

Jerry, is this what you mean…

Hi,
Yes it is, very well explained, glad someone could do it.
Most plans don’t show this as a sort of vertical side to the cockpit, most show it as a curve, but photos, AP and P7103’s crash investigation farnborough report seem to make it like this, vertical and the farnborough sketches makes it widen after the second frame behind the control panel frame , frames three and four slightly wider, until the next main frame/ bulkhead joint, where it transitions to the fuselage rear section [ fuselage to cockpit joint ].
The actual joint of the bottom of cockpit section along this stretch is two right angle forms , ( bit like a letter ‘T’ on it’s side with the flat top of the T facing outboard ) { I am terrible at describing this } this is actually the joint where it all failed and caused the crash of P7103.
Wish I new more on doing profile and drawings on the computer, I would make the time to do some.
Must go I could go on forever otherwise…….
Cheers
Jerry

thoughts

I totally agree Jerry, however having done a couple of published Aircraft/Unit history projects myself (Limited production items for Unit Anniversaries and Air Shows), I’ve come across the all problems that you hit when doing this type of project. First you have a publishing deadline to meet, the hours are just not there to go the extra mile. Secondly the official records often have mistakes in them too. (Anybody who has been though the Squadron F540s at Kew will tell you how variable the quality of information in them is, and of course they then have to be cross-referred to Station or Wing ORB, Combat reports, Loss record cards and Log books (if you can get access to any, Kew pulped most of ones they held years ago), plus anything that Hendon has or is held by AHB, Squadron Association or any ex member of the unit concerned that you happen to make contact with). Its a lot easier to go with what has been published before (and unfortunately leads to a lot of people like us getting p 😡 😡 😡 ed off). One other problem is you have to deal with is to have somebody to proof the thing that knows the subject as well as yourself and has the time to go though it in very fine detail (especially in this day of word document cut and paste).

You will not have run into the biggest problem, I ever had with a project however. I wanted to go to Kew on two occasions last year to cross-refer / check information on my project before putting it in for printing (they were the only days that month that I could get off work on a weekday or a Saturday to do it). On both occasions, I could not get into London due to servicemen being banned from going within the M25 unless for service reasons. The days I planned, 8th and 22nd July 2005.

One final point, on a similar vain, has anybody seen the latest RAF Yearbook, page 47 bottom corner. Three aircraft plan views on the tail of Jaguar XZ112 ‘GW’. SPITFIRE! SPITFIRE!! It’s a B 😡 😡 😡 DY HURRICANE!!!

Hi
yep true there are problems publishing,
and yep research is frustrating, my worse one at PRO/NA is going back to files seen in the mid 70’s when my hobby funds were restricted to say the least, to copy info and photos seen, only to find the file has a totally different topic :confused: ( the file has gone ? ) or the photo i want to copy has gone….. :

O for a digital camera in the 70’s………

Cheers
jerry

”and the drawings on page 61 look a bit suspect.

side profile C , the cockpit side walls curve to the top of the joint with the wings, but to be fair most i have seen do this,
but from wartime drawings AP , and stuff at the NA,& photos, it seems to be straight down, bit hard to explain , but if anyone wants the drawings ( AP & NA ) mail me and i will send them, it is easier to see, ( but i can’t mail until about tue/wed )”

Jerry, is this what you mean…

it is nice to have another article, but to be mis – informed in an article, isn’t correct, people use the facts in future articles , ( as seen ) , I think that the extra mile should have been run.

I totally agree Jerry, however having done a couple of published Aircraft/Unit history projects myself (Limited production items for Unit Anniversaries and Air Shows), I’ve come across the all problems that you hit when doing this type of project. First you have a publishing deadline to meet, the hours are just not there to go the extra mile. Secondly the official records often have mistakes in them too. (Anybody who has been though the Squadron F540s at Kew will tell you how variable the quality of information in them is, and of course they then have to be cross-referred to Station or Wing ORB, Combat reports, Loss record cards and Log books (if you can get access to any, Kew pulped most of ones they held years ago), plus anything that Hendon has or is held by AHB, Squadron Association or any ex member of the unit concerned that you happen to make contact with). Its a lot easier to go with what has been published before (and unfortunately leads to a lot of people like us getting p 😡 😡 😡 ed off). One other problem is you have to deal with is to have somebody to proof the thing that knows the subject as well as yourself and has the time to go though it in very fine detail (especially in this day of word document cut and paste).

You will not have run into the biggest problem, I ever had with a project however. I wanted to go to Kew on two occasions last year to cross-refer / check information on my project before putting it in for printing (they were the only days that month that I could get off work on a weekday or a Saturday to do it). On both occasions, I could not get into London due to servicemen being banned from going within the M25 unless for service reasons. The days I planned, 8th and 22nd July 2005.

One final point, on a similar vain, has anybody seen the latest RAF Yearbook, page 47 bottom corner. Three aircraft plan views on the tail of Jaguar XZ112 ‘GW’. SPITFIRE! SPITFIRE!! It’s a B 😡 😡 😡 DY HURRICANE!!!

It would be nice if you had the time and inclination to write a similar but fully correct article for Flypast magazine . . .
I for one would greatly appreciate it!
I have come across so may perpetuated mistakes in compiling my personal database (of first flights) it can be extremely difficult to know what really is the truth. Here in Sweden I do not have access to many great sources that are available in the UK, so my project is very long drawn out (5 years so far and still counting!)

25 Sqn Whirlwind was L6845 (2nd Prototype) delivered to the Sqn for Service Trials at North Weald in May 1940. Aircraft was flown by 9 pilots during daylight hours and 5 at night (including a limited firing of the cannon during the night trials). The type was slated for its poor handing in night landings and the muzzle flash when cannon was fired at night (destroyed pilots night vision). My source of info. Hawks Rising the story of 25 Sqn RAF.