Aeroventure lose out on a Vulcan Crew Drill Trainer

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VULCAn CREW DRILL TRAINER UPDATE 2016

An update on the Crew Drill Trainer after events in 2015. I*was contacted by Bill Fern of AeroVenture late last year asking me to give an online*update on the Vulcan CDT section that is going on display at RAF Scampton. Happily I can record here that the item was subsequently gifted to AeroVenture by VTTST after discussions with Bill, following which* AeroVenture*(AV)*responded immediately by fashioning their own display frame for her*which was lacking after being moved temporarily to AV on VTTST’s behalf over 4 years ago.

The agreement is that for as long as the CDT is wanted at Scampton then AV are happy to permit this on a loan arrangement with appropriate signage to inform the public, at the ending of which it will return for display at AV. AV and Scampton*are happy with this agreement and it ensures that this rare earliest example of a Vulcan crew test section will have a future if Scampton should not wish to retain it at a later date.*

It is also a tribute to the work of former BAPC Chairman the late Steve Hague, who arranged with myself to have it transported to AV after being temporarily bought by BAPC, before being reimbursed by VTTST following its arrival at AV in 2012. The item will move to Scampton as soon as the base makes arrangements for transportation.

Hi Gokone, do you have any photos of the cockpit and stand so that I can visualise what is being discussed. Thanks

Hiya,

Alas my upload limit ran out some time ago but if you look at Howard’s Post 8, he kindly supplied a link that will take you back to the original thread of (I think) 2011.

G

XL388 Vulcan Nose Section

On the subject of XL388 I can confirm that Bill Fern was asked bout this item besides the CD Trainer when the Scampton people first visited AeroVenture to make their enquiries. They were told that it belonged to two museum people who were restoring it and that it was not for sale or loan to Scampton. It used to be at Vulcans End in Suffolk where our Victor XL60 nose also resided for many years and was chopped about a bit in the pilot’s area when used for the Aliens 2 movie all those Ridley Scotts ago.

DISPLAY CONSIDERATIONS 2 of 2

GOK
None of my stuff is German aside from an old Spike Milligan novel. It may be a comparison but aside from not being confusing or eclectic if its done in a positive way, it is the case that the content of what Scampton had was more interesting to the public before they took so much loaned stuff away – kids will like to see a big missile, its an attraction. The offer now is greatly devalued to the public in general because the kind of stuff they would expect to see isn’t as varied re the jet-age now.

The amount of WW2 stuff they had left after the loans were cancelled was small and if I had the chance to display kit that made the overall appeal more interesting to the public whatever its period, then its a positive.

It is an extreme comparison re Marham as I’m focusing on the internal kit which is what the public see most of, as cockpits/airframes are limited anyway. If the ATC stuff is adequate to replace what’s been lost then fine, but what will it be I wonder? In the case of varying types of RAF ejector seat regardless of what aircraft served there, I think that is a loss alone.

The Station acts as parent organisation to 3 resident units, namely the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team (RAFAT), No 1 Air Control Centre (1ACC) and the Mobile Meteorological Unit (MMU). What kit do the latter two units have that are of display interest aside from the ATC? As a former RFC station do they have any seats of Camel, Pup & Dolphin that flew from there? And while I would like to see those items there, would these be as interesting to kids of today if they were?

It re-opened in 1936 after farming again following WW1 so Manchester and Lancaster (no seats likely). Then B-29 (no seats likely), ending with Canberra and Vulcan (seats likely) before the Hawk arrived.

So far its fair to expect that they would only have Hawk/Canberra/Vulcan ejector seats that could be shown now. They might not have any Lanc seats so when the other seats of Bucc, Tornado, Harrier etc are added (which don’t take up that much space re footprint) then you have more interest with them and they are clearly applicable to RAF aircraft of the jet-age.

If they don’t want the items anyway re liability that’s fine though short-sighted to the public’s detriment again – I think over 80% of Brooklands stuff is on loan if I remember rightly but I can’t look at a story I did so many years ago now. Even if Scampi does have some stuff available that might have been formerly tucked away somewhere I hope its sufficient in quantity and interest. The liability issue dosen’t seem to have got to Wittering from what I understand about their display policy but I haven’t had time to look into that one yet.

PS
(This isn’t another person by the way, it means ‘postscript’). If the MLAC Rules ‘L’ mentioned earlier stand for Modern Languages & Cultures then I don’t agree that its no bad thing re RAF/MoD compliance on loaned items. Let’s hope the CD Trainer takes up some of the lost display space vacated now..
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DISPLAY CONSIDERATIONS 1 of 2

GOK
Lightning and Hawk cockpits are nicely wooshy for Scampton.
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L
You’re missing the point. The policy wasn’t to get rid of woosh, it was to get rid of anything not having a direct connection to Scampton, which really is the right thing to do for a Scampton museum, as opposed to an aviation museum located at Scampton. A Vulcan is also wooshy and they hope to receive a large lump of one.

All Heritage centre’s focus on the aircraft and squadrons that have actually been based at that unit. Lets face it, Its much easier to create a strong museum when you have a focus otherwise it just becomes a collection of irrelevant artefacts which just confuses the average museum visitor.
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GOK
It shouldn’t be if its laid out right and items are chosen carefully – helmets of one squadron will look much the same as another if no one’s messed with ’em, and ejector seats don’t change much either, so you should be able to keep certain things in and not have any worries – especially if you don’t have many of your own anyway.

How many seats have they replaced with their own that are now ‘ejected’ from the museum I wonder. Of course have stuff relating to a base, but if you have great examples of other stuff that the public expect to see then mums and dads won’t worry too much about that, and most people would still find it interesting and not confusing.

Flixton for example doesn’t confuse anyone, the public just say what a great museum and there’s so much to see and there’s something for everyone etc.
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GR
Ahhhhh yes but you can’t really compare a station HERITAGE centre to a regional museum. It probably has a lot to do with fact that the RAF does not want to accept any liability for other people’s artefacts, The RAF are going through a period of ‘clearing out’ at their units, eg the Station gate guard policy that has been adopted. Marham has three, one of which (the Victor) they have been doing their utmost to get rid off for the past god knows how many years BUT they don’t know who actually owns it? So the RAF are learning from their lessons with accepting other people’s artefacts on loan even though this is an extreme case but it proves a point.

With RAF Scampton it might also be down to the fact that the RAF want the space occupied by these items, Scampton is quite a small unit and host the RAF Fire and Rescue service museum as well as the Heritage centre, They have also taken on the ATC heritage museum so I think they have good reason to have a bit of a clear out, after all it is still an operational air base and not an extension of Hendon, Cosford, Duxford, Flixton, Newark, Yeovil etc etc etc.

I know for a fact they are not blessed with a surplus of storage space. On a positive note it is good that the RAF have adopted this ‘Heritage Centre’ ethos as it wasn’t so many years ago all this kit and artefacts would have been packed away in boxes gathering dust and totally forgotten about….SO ‘HUSSAR’ and boo sucks to you Harry Hun.
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L
Flixton is the Norfolk and Suffolk AVIATION Museum, so it can cover anything to do with aviation. The establishment is the SCAMPTON Heritage centre so all it should display is items with a direct link to Scampton. It’s not about filling the place with an eclectic mix of unrelated artefacts that don’t tell the story of Scampton just for the sake of having a display.

They’ve a very good grasp on the past but they’ve introduced a collections policy that defines what they’re about. So the other stuff had to go. It’s as simple as that. I can see why others are so upset but it’s a risk you take when you have anything on land that isn’t yours in an organisation that isn’t yours. Then there’s the space issues.

It does look like the RAF/MoD is trying to comply with MLAC rules and that’s no bad thing.

Hi Gokone, do you have any photos of the cockpit and stand so that I can visualise what is being discussed. Thanks

Out of interest which?

Alternatively it could just be that as there were no Buccaneer units based at Scampton
There was one very well-known Buccaneer unit based there, that’s the point of what we’ve been saying.

They have and the thread is about the right Vulcan.

[QUOTE=WH904;2238496]Bunsen, I don’t think there’s any misunderstanding, it’s just the implication that follows. All well and good to claim that the collection should be directly relevant to Scampton, but if Buccaneer items were removed it suggests that it’s more about an obsession with the WWII era yet again. QUOTE]

I don’t think that if Buccaneer stuff is removed it points to an obsession with WW2. It could just as easily be an obsession with Eurofighter. Alternatively it could just be that as there were no Buccaneer units based at Scampton it wasn’t seen as relevant. Don’t forget, we’re talking about the RAF Scampton Heritage Centre, not a general aviation museum.

On that sort of note, are we discussing the correct Vulcan nose? I don’t think anyone from VTTST, Aeroventure or Scampton has posted on this thread, one of them could confirm it. I say that because also at Aeroventure is the nose of Vulcan XL388, which did fly operationally from Scampton.

Bunsen, I don’t think there’s any misunderstanding, it’s just the implication that follows. All well and good to claim that the collection should be directly relevant to Scampton, but if Buccaneer items were removed it suggests that it’s more about an obsession with the WWII era yet again.

Blue – Think it fair to say that more than a few people have a slightly tainted opinion of VTTS 😉

The same VTTST that still owes us promised main wheels and tyres for 231…

Gokone – That’s very sad if the Scampton museum is deliberately removing items that people would like to see. As you say, there’s certainly no reason why Buccaneer artefacts shouldn’t be on show – same would apply to Phantom, Tucano, Jet Provost, Hunter, Vulcan of course, Canberra… etc. I really do find the obsession with the WWII era very frustrating.

There’s been a misunderstanding here.

There never was any intention to have only WWII items there. The Museum is the RAF Scampton Museum and a new Station Commander thought it was inappropriate to have items that had no direct relevance to Scampton or the units that were there while they were there.

As a result a number of items were ordered to be removed.

There was a lot of anguish over the way it was done and the timescales imposed by the RAF, more time should have been allowed and the person(s) deciding what should be retained and what should go should have been more knowledgeable but as afar as I know at no time were the people running the Museum told to have only WWII items

Gokone – That’s very sad if the Scampton museum is deliberately removing items that people would like to see. As you say, there’s certainly no reason why Buccaneer artefacts shouldn’t be on show – same would apply to Phantom, Tucano, Jet Provost, Hunter, Vulcan of course, Canberra… etc. I really do find the obsession with the WWII era very frustrating. Obviously I understand that people of a certain age are primarily interested in that era, and likewise I appreciate that WWII certainly shouldn’t be forgotten. But sometimes it starts to look like an obsession that results in some bad developments like this and others (see the Herald thread above). It would be ridiculous if Scampton was to be portrayed forever as “the home of the Dambusters” and nothing else. It’s as if the base has had no relevance to our history for anything more than a couple of weeks in the 1940s.

As for ‘Vulcan to the Sky’, well, on the face of it they haven’t covered themselves in glory but we haven’t heard their side of the story yet. Maybe we will at some point?
I doubt it very much. On the basis of past years I think we can assume that like everything else, the truth will be lost behind a lot of smoke and mirrors.

I wouldn’t lend anything to the RAF period…. Look what Benson did to that RAF WW2 PR Spit pilots long treasured photos and items… They lost the lot!

How true! History never ends….

History never ends but Government disposals procedures and attitudes to heritage change, with resulting changes in availability of items for preservation.

So TSR2 items appear now and then but later Harrier GR1 items, that I need, don’t and then Tornado items do but at stupid prices that hardly anyone can afford.

Have to be honest, I’m not a proper spotter, can’t remember half the serial numbers, even some of my favorites, but it didn’t take too long to look at who was involved, and with what, and put the abbreviations to the relevant groups / items.

Rule of thumb with regards to loaned / stored items (as has been said) get it in writing; I used to be aquisitions / disposal officer (it was a small museum, and a registered charity, so obviously a grandiose title was the order of the day) we had an Allis Chalmers tractor left with us for about 10 years, not on loan or gifted, and the chap was nowhere to be found, “duty of care” notwithstanding, how can you track down someone who doesn’t want to be found, (for whatever reason) but on the same note if he were to turn up (to claim it ) do you bill him for safe storage?

Storage and Haulage, these are the watch words; neither are cheap and people disappear fast when either are mentioned.

I’m saddened to hear that items have been removed from Scampton. It’s disheartening to hear tales of preference being given to WWII artefacts at the expense of the Cold War, but it seems to happen a lot. I wonder how many decades will pass before everyone finally accepts that history didn’t end in 1945.

Hiya,

Its not just WW2 items that are being focused on but jet items that are relevant to Scampton solely which are now deemed suitable for display from what I have been told – but the problem is the public are now missing out on a lot of great post-war kit as you say – one example is a Buccaneer seat. Yes the a/c never operated from there, but line mods or something similar was undertaken on Buccs there and so was clearly a part of the station’s history.

BUT, because it wasn’t a properly constituted Buccaneer Sqn operating from Scampton, the seat (a lovely complete example like many others inc Harrier and Tornado) is deemed not relevant. I can understand it only to a small extent as the public are interested in seeing jet-age exhibits besides any earlier history – they’re not interested if its directly linked to the base on not.

As mentioned, there is no guarantee that the Vulcan trainer will be flavour on the month at Scampton forever if a new ‘personality’ comes along or a new MoD directive is issued – and such directives don’t usually allow much time for something to be found a home as we all know (usually a month, “or preferably, less”). The irony of the Vulcan trainer is that it is going back to the base that originally got rid of it, as taken from a museum that has stored it safely for years while hoping that it would be consulted if it wasn’t wanted and allowed to properly display it after the item has been neglected by the Vulcan Trust people for almost 4 years.

Private collectors who have loaned items to Scampton including whole cockpits have had the unexpected inconvenience and worry of moving their prized exhibits out of Scampton to other locations, and who wins? The museum has less displays of interest, so that the public have a less interesting visit – kids want to see jets as well as Spitfires and Hurricanes and the more they can be entertained by it all then we will be helping with the new-millennia engineers, pilots and preservationists of the future..

Didn’t think for one moment that any attempt at superiority was involved here but I am quite a keen aviation nut and have followed the ups and downs of the aircraft preservation movement since the mid seventies. Frankly, hadn’t a clue what the various abbreviations meant and therefore found the opening post a real trial to read; way too convoluted.
As for ‘Vulcan to the Sky’, well, on the face of it they haven’t covered themselves in glory but we haven’t heard their side of the story yet. Maybe we will at some point?
Bottom line at the moment appears to be that the article was theirs and they have exercised their rights of possession in a rather tactless way.