Agosta 70 vs Song vs Foxtrot vs Type-206

ok thank you for that information.

But i have had enough about propellors so im ending it here 🙂

It’s a replenisher and it really is half a year of use, I’ve seen them being installed. The average speed of the ship is 14-17kts I think. They aren’t what you would call “cheap” either, although they are not truly expensive either as it still only counts four blades. Do notice that it’s a variable pitch prop, many changing forces on the blades. The one with that cavitation damage is not the same as the one pictured in the second picture.

Oh, sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. The milling machine needs a very good and accurate dimention input, this is what the computer is required for. It’s a highly automated system that needs few people to work, if you for example would put a human on the switches, you could practically use it too, but then the blade wouldn’t have a proper finish, most likely end up very much weakened. Basically you would get “bumps” in the blade. By letting the computer control, you have a very smooth finish.

Neptune you haven’t even asnwered my wquestion.

Why did the russians need a computer for its milling machine? To regulate the RPM?. I dont really see the actual need for the milling machine to be used combined wih a pentium I(if even that). I am thinking more on the lines on the actualy drill used. The japanese propably came up with a new type of materil to make the drill thing out of. Not putting down the soviet stell factory but it was kind of limited in creativity

PS: I have seen many propellors and that is no way 1/2 a year. It might be the cheap materials used but no way a good quality propellor will look like that after 1/2 a year. Also what type of boat is that?. It might be the regular use of speeds higher than 20knots

walking around at work today, waiting for some work, so took this picture. It very well shows what cavitation can do to a propellor.
The other prop is showing what half a year of sailing can do to it. Needs no extra explanation I suppose.

Well, the milling machines are not easy to make yourself. Back then, the computer/electronics level was still quite low, certainly when compared to Japan, the milling machines on their side are controlled by a very complex computer system, including a huge software program. The level of electronics/computers was not bad in some areas as their specialists were very well educated and had great skill, this is probably one of the advantages of their advanced mathematics. But, the work and research for hardware was lacking, they generally bought some computers from the West if it was really necessary. Of course the computer is not all, you still need a good machine and the software to fit everything together, it was much easier to make this leap by buying the things abroad, certainly from Japan, then it was to try to develop it themselves. It would have taken many years more.

The Victor III and Kilo sound level was indeed a lot lower than what they had before, yet it was still not sufficient. They still lacked the good designs needed for a really good propellor, the Victor had already a seven-blade propellor, milled for better performance and less cavitation damage, yet it did not have a skewed propellor yet. It still had the regular shaped blades, so was Kilo’s six-blade propellor.

The first classes featuring the real skewed seven blade propellors were the later subs, namely Akula, Typhoon and Oscar II, all of them featured the seven blade skewed propellor, but only about 10 years after the first Victor III was built. I am not sure, but I think the Mike was the first submarine to test this new propellor on a real ship.
Akula also left away the small manoeuvering propellors, these things, when stopped created some noise too. Akula had them retractable, a much better configuration. So basically it’s not all about the propellor alone and not about these milling machines alone either, it gave them a leap, but it took some years to get the full advantage out of them.

As for why they returned to normal propellors, easy, titanium sucks. It’s hard to get a good propellor from it, the milling machines were not built for this kind of material and titanium is equally vulnerable to cavitation problems, parts get ripped out equally easy as in the normal propellors. So better take a cheaper material then… I do think the Alpha’s had titanium propellors, maybe Papa too.

@ Neptune

Its not just the milling machine. Its the way you make the metal. I would put making the acoustic signiture higher than than having a stronger blade as the main reason the soviets wanted the milling machine from the japanese.

Since you know more about the mlling machiens please elaborate more on why the rusian needed this japanese milling machine

The Victor III to akula had a massive drop in the signiture thanks mainly to the redesigned propellor. 5blade to the 7blade.

As for Titanium, the Soviet Union used to try that.

Yes, tried is the word.
Like they tried liquid-metal cooled reactors and the like. To no avail…
Why do you think the came back to bronze-cupper alloys?

Well of course it has to do with sound too, these cavitation bubbles make noise when they implode… So basically it helps in two ways. I think sound might have been their primary concern, yet the production of propellors takes time, so it might have helped a bunch in that regard too. I did say THINK, I’m not sure of course, I am sure of what such machines do and what the consequences are, but of course not about political decisions.

I know why they wanted it to be smooth. I thought it was more to do with the sound then the strength of the propellor. A submarine has a over hual every X amount of years

What was the material?. a mix of carbon + nickel other things.?

that is because they wanted their blades to be extra smooth. The finish of the blades was pretty rough on Soviet ships, this meant that some of the cavitation bubbles stuck in these “unconformities”. When the blades goes down, the pressure rises, the bubbles that are stuck to the blade collapse and rip out parts of the propellor.
They wore out pretty quickly this way, causing even more noise.
So they had some good reason to get better equipment.

my mistake there. i was talking about drillling holes.

Im not quite sure why the soviets wanted the japanese miling machines but the model involed (MPD-3040) had a electric microscope and drill/whatever its called made of a speical material.

The particular miling machines we are talking about is to make mircoscopic drills into the blades so they dont supercavitate like a bitch. The russians at that time had crude machines(drill +microscope?)

Oops, you’re wrong there… The things you are talking about are Drilling Machines, up till only US masters that technology well.
The Milling machines are the ones that have to finish the blades after the molding of the propellor. The Russians seem to have a “too fast” molding, creating a too heavy vortical flow in the mold creating air bubbles in the propellor (which is very bad for the strength), probably the Titanium propellors were a try to counter this. So yes Francois, go and ask them about it.

Stated in Globalsecurity:
The Project 641 (Foxtrot) submarines were derivatives of the Whiskey and Romeo class diesel boats.

So, it is just an equivalant of old Chinese Ming class which modified from “R” class.

A total of at least 57 and and as many as 62 units were believed to have been built for the Soviet Navy until 1967. Historically there were more than ten Foxtrots in the Baltic Fleet (numerically the largest fleet in the Russian navy); today there are none. Reportedly by early-2000 only three boats of this class remain in service, though the identity of these units is somewhat obscure, and they are expected to be retired shortly.

Even Soviet retired all its fleet of 62, it is consider garbage in modern day. India still using it because there were no other proper replacement due to financial constraint.

just look at the cost and time line with no Brahamos.

Scorpene submarine deal to cost 4.11 bn USD: Govt

New Delhi, Nov 24 (PTI) Government said today the deal for manufacture of six French Scorpene Class Submarine in India would cost the country’s exchequer Rs 18,798 crores (4.11 bn USD) and the first submarine would be ready for induction by 2012.

Giving the details for the first time, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee informed the Rajya Sabha in a written reply that of the total sum, Rs 3,553 crore (789 million USD) would be an outgo as taxes. Earlier, estimates had said the submarines deal would cost 3.5 bn USD.

In reply to another question, he said no decision has been taken to redesignate the Military Nursing Service (MNS) Cadre. The issue is under examination by the Army headquarters which was studying the report of a 10-memmber Committee that recommended redesignation of the MNS, he said.

On the long-awaited demand of one-rank-one-pension for ex-servicemen, the Minister said the Group of Ministers had finalised its recommendations and the decision of the Cabinet was awaited.

Referring to devastating earthquake in Jammu and Kashmir, Mukherjee said 45 army personnel, including an officer and a JCO, had been killed.

Of these, he said 38 personnel were killed in the earthquake which occurred on October eight and the remaining in landslides and tremors that followed.

Milling machines? Can someone please tell me what they are?

The particular miling machines we are talking about is to make mircoscopic drills into the blades so they dont supercavitate like a bitch. The russians at that time had crude machines(drill +microscope?)

Chinawhite, is that Sankt-Petersburg propellor really what a prop would have to look like?

No. showing him what a seven blade propellor is.

FAS? The best source on the net?

In its day..

They stopped updating in 1999.

At least the Song should be equal to any eighties sub. It has features typical of the most modern subs, such as the ability to fire antiship missiles underwater and skewed propellers. If you think they’re not important, then I bet stealth is not an important feature for a fifth generation fighter either.

But it should be comparable to an F-16, not to a MiG-21.

But there is no Foxtrot in the nineties. And not every Western and Russian sub have that capability either. And certainly not the Foxtrot.

The first Chinese sub to fire an antiship missile underwater is actually the Han Class and they have done that in the eighties.

I’m sorry but no unsuccessful project ever got into both operational and mass production status.

Kilo purchase was independent of the Song program. The fixes that brought the successful 039G variant of the Song does not have anything to do with the Kilos, nor was there any Kilo derived lesson. In fact, Kilo features are quite the opposite of the Song, such as the sail and rudder designs, as well as sink hole patterns. In addition, the Kilos themselves were having problems, quite behind in their control systems, and can’t be considered successful in Chinese service.

China went for the new 8 Kilos because of the Klub missile complex and the fact that China lacked enough yards to build subs fast enough. The Russians simply had more yards available and they were vacant, while Chinese shipyards are chocked full of export orders. When the new 8 Kilo 636EM contract was made, China even went to stipulate that the subs made be made by four specified yards, with two each for every yard to get the subs ASAP. China is probably disappointed to get all 8 subs only by 2006, with the first two received this year. By then Yuan would have finished all its trials.

crobato, there is an article in China Defense Forum that claims the 8 kilos will be delivered by the end of this year. dunno how true it is, you can check it out.

will the 093 SSN be more advanced than Yuan, Kilo? also do you have any idea/info about 095 SSN chinese next generation nuclear attack submarine?

Are you in out of touch with the world lately , Indian sonar development is one of the key sucess of the IN & DRDO, Most of the modern IN Ships Talwar,Delhi and other top of line ships.

I will give you this one, the Indian sonar is one of the strength of IN.

Isnt That a obvious fact , I am questioning the 7 Blade Made In China skewed propellor , Make a 7 Blade skewed propellor is an art , its not about if you can make it its about how good the craftman ship is when designing a skewed propellor , Ever compared a German and Russian skewed propellor

As I quote below, 039 benefitted from a lot of German assistance. I’m sure the propeller is just one of them. We’ve already shown you that the electronics in song more modern than that of 877EKM. And don’t diss China’s shipbuilding industry. It’s number 3 in the world right now behind Japan and South Korea. In a few years, it will be in a 3-way tie with those countries. The technology used in the Chinese shipyards are much better than that of the Russian shipyards. It builds ships for countries all around the world. If there is one thing can’t question, it is the quality of Chinese ships.

When I hear such arguments like Yuan is eqal to Amur and Song is equal to T-209 then I have nothing to say , I just laugh it away 😀

The person I quoted is Richard Fisher. His knowledge of PLA is good enough to speak to the American congress. You obviously know more than him, maybe you should tell George Bush that, so he will ask your opinion of PLA next time.

I am sure some one here one day will claim than HAN is equal to LA class and the new Type 093 would surpass Seawolf capability.

Nobody said that and nobody will.

Foxtrot is a cold war veteran , People who manned it knew what it was , As I stated before Indian Sonar and C&C system is preffered over Russian one speaks volume about its capability.

You saw the C&C of Song. It is clearly more advanced than the Russian one.

I quoted Janes on Song , Much better then quoting Wiki.

As I said, that JDW article was written years ago when the problems surrounding Song were not solved like they are solved now.

I dont expect Chinese lecture on the noiseness of subs , thats the last thing you would like to talk about when you want to discuss Chinese sub development.

Right, Maybe you won’t sound so foolish if you bothered to read up on a few things and provide some links for your arguments.

Appereance can be deceptive , Subs has lot to it than just appearance .
Please stop even remotely comparing the Agosta 90B to the Songs , There is a generational difference bewteen the two , Just because Chinese built their Song Class in mid nineties dosent make it equal to the Agosta90B,T-209 ,Kilo and other subs.

Let’s put it this way, the Kilos that IN has don’t even have the 7 blade propeller. Do you have any proof that Song sub is at the level you are saying it is at? We’ve provided plenty, but you haven’t given a single thing.

Its Just like saying since we managed to develop the J-10 in early 2000 , so it should be comparable to the F-22.

Did you read my argument at all? I said that you can say one plane is not as good as another just because it’s stats are half classified and it hasn’t been exported. How do you even come up with this kind of skewed summary from my argument? I have to ask now, what kind of education have you had?

Firing of AshM is no great achievement at this time , Most of the western and russian subs have been having this capability since decades , Its just a natural progression , A Foxtrot of nineties would be capable of doing the same .

But it doesn’t, does it? A sub only has so many things you can compare: quietness, weaponary and

Nothing Personal here , But ever thought of visiting a Shrink.

Wow, I’m amazed you even know what a shrink is. For those comparisons, check this:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.83/pub_detail.asp
“The PLAN now has about 12 to 14 modern Type 039 SONG attack submarines and recently expanded production of this type to a second shipyard, that could support annual production of 2 to 3. The Type 039 has benefited from some foreign assistance, including Israeli electronic and design assistance, German diesel engines and very likely, German design assistance to correct the Israeli assistance. It incorporates modern quieting technology like a 7-blade skewed propeller, anechoic tiling, and is equipped with extensive digital command and sonar processing equipment, and is armed with the YJ-81Q, and perhaps the YJ-82Q anti-ship missile…. But in 2004 the PLAN launched the first of its new YUAN class, which bears a suspicious resemblance to Russia’s new Project 677 LADA class SSK. Inasmuch as the 677 incorporates improved crew-reducing automation, better sonar, and in the future, AIP systems, it can be surmised that the YUAN may benefit from all these technologies.”

An unsucessful project ( not a total failure ) can be continue to progress , If it gives you a learning curve to develop a better sub like Yuan , Please dont throw numbers to defend its sucess , Kilo’s were purchased when Chinese realised their sub technology was generational behind the West , Kilo is a good move to leap frog to something much much better , and upgrade Chinese Sub technology and knowledge , IMO it was a right move by China, As it is greatly helping the Yuan Project.

so now, you have gone from a failure to unsuccessful project. interesting… What would you quantify as an successful project? Normally, when a product gets a lot of purchases, it’s considered to be successful. Those items that you used were written years ago. They did not include the recent assessment which I posted. China bought the Kilos, because it needed to quickly replace its existing outdated fleet of 033 and 035. As I said, China needed to replace these things fast and having the Russians build subs for China sped up the process of replacement. And most importantly, China received the Club missiles and the Russian torpedoes, which China badly needed.

Crobato, I was actually meaning Austin and Chinawhite with that.
Of course certain countries can do it, but if it is as easy as Austin seems to think, then he should be capable of doing so too! I had seen the Chinese versions of it already. Swedish, German and other subs have it too.

As for Titanium, the Soviet Union used to try that.

Something puzzles me, the Chinese Kilos seem to have a left turning propellor, while the normal ships/submarines have right turning ones! Can’t see the real reason for it though, Sankt-Petersburg also has a right turning one. At first I thought they would have the same propellors, yet this is not the case judging from some pictures. You can also see the Song has a right turning one.