Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

With the new doors in the event of single pilot incapacitation the remaining pilot would notify the cabin crew and grant them cockpit access. In the event of dual pilot incapacitation there is a procedure that allows the cabin crew access to the flightdeck but I shouldn’t really divulge too much in that direction. All I can say is that if either pilot is concious in the flightdeck under the new system it is theoretically impossible for anyone (including cabin crew) to gain access without permission.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

Locked doors – hmmm one thing that needs to be pointed out – what is the number of emergencies in the cockpit (first aid to flight crew) vs attempted take overs? – just a point – i know that they can be unlocked etc but with a high workload and any other probs is this something that could be taken into consideration?

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

I want an effective gun easy to hand.

I have access through to my back garden down one side of my house. Until last summer this access was open so if someone walked into my back garden they could claim to have made a mistake. Now I have a very secure locked gate. It is 6′ high and capable of being climbed over but if someone appears in my back garden (there is no other legitimate point of access) they have in effect stated that their presence is deliberate and unlawful. I spent over £500 on this gate knowing that it would not keep out a burglar but that it would define an intruders intent in a court of law.

The flightdeck door is the last line of defense. If you enter uninvited you have stated your intent is malicious as you have bypassed a reinforced door and entry system. If the weapon is kept in the flightdeck it cannot be used to gain entry into there and if they do get into the flightdeck there is at least some chance for us to defend ourselves which will protect any surviving passengers and people who may perish on the ground.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

Generally I agree with that wysiwyg.

But where would you stow the gun? If it is to hand easily, than presumably somebody other than the pilots could pinch it? And if locked away, will that be too cumbersome to be effective?

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

Good point about the smaller capacity aircraft Fokker.
I’m really starting to go away from the idea of these marshalls. If there is going to be any weapon on board I want it with me in my secure flightdeck so I can use it purely as a last line of defence in case someone gets past the door. This way there is no weapon in the cabin for the terrorist to take over. If they get through the door we have a weapon to fight back. If the terrorist(s) get in the cockpit and I have to shoot to kill, dealing with the after effects of bullet damage to the structure is minor compared to the incident that the gun may have just prevented. A marshall cannot be omnipresent throughout a large aeroplane and is likely to prove ineffective against a group. I consider the risk element of carrying a marshall greater than the risk involved by not carrying one but allowing a weapon in the flightdeck.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

One side effect on cowboys on board I have not heared yet. Personally I think this is over reacting, how many flights every day and how many where these cowboys might be of use? Flying has been the safest way of transport for a long time and no crazy bunch (like the lunatics on 11-9) can do anything about it. In a way we are giving in to lunatics and we are defenitely not helping airlines with there economics. One or two marshalls on board a 747 or any plane with more than say 100 seats have an influence already on yield. What are we going to do to our Regional Operators like Eastern Airways with their Jetstreams? A 19 seater would mean only 18 seats to be sold as you have the marshall, less and less destinations will become profitable to fly on or prices would have to go up! Do we really want that??? 🙁

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

Maple,

OK, sorry, I exaggerated a bit. No offence intended.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

“A knife is a personal weapon, whilst one person is being stabbed the knife is no longer a threat to anyone else.”

Isn’t that a little simplistic? While the knife is in the hands of the terrorist it is always a threat. But what about multiple terrorists as there was on September 11th? These are people who crave death. If five terrorists kill five passengers and die in the attempt they have still succeeded.

“If shots have to be fired as a LAST resort an officer will understand the ramifications of that,”

If that last resort means the deaths of passengers, and conceivably the police officers own deaths in the process, the terrorists still come out on top.

“if there are hostages he can just protect the cockpit until he has a shot or the plane is landed by the pilots, who will be able to radio the ground and fly the aircraft un hindered (which is there 1st
responsibility!)”

Great! The cockpit crew get to land the plane safely so the investigators have an easier time identifying the bodies following the bloodbath that will inevitably occur. Don’t get me wrong, I sincerely hope this works, but I think there’s as much chance of this working as there is of Bush’s invasion of Iraq bringing an end to the war on terror.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

There are alot of view but one thing is for sure, they ar here, this is a good thing.
A person trained in anti-terrorist activities will be good overall and will be briefed on how to do it, he/she will be a pro. with the tools required to do the job. Better that than nothing or a greater risk.
Im a pilot and want it. The airlines that dont are mainly concerned with the costs.
A knife is a personal weapon, whilst one person is being stabbed the knife is no longer a threat to anyone else.
If shots have to be fired as a LAST resort an officer will understand the ramifications of that, if there are hostages he can just protect the cockpit until he has a shot or the plane is landed by the pilots, who will be able to radio the ground and fly the aircraft un hindered (which is there 1st responsibility!)

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-12-02 AT 09:46 AM (GMT) by WebMaster (admin)]Mongu

While respecting everyone’s opinion and their reasons for one stance or another, and not wanting to make this a discussion on culture, but in defending Canadians, to say that Canada “celebrate(s) the gun culture” is not only wrong, it’s completely misinformed, as is assuming that the cultures of Canada and the United States are one, and not without their own identifiable attributes. Perhaps you have lived in Canada and have gathered this opinion, I’m not sure. But Canada does not “do” the gun “thing” either, much as recent legislation in our country would indicate.

Again, not trying to be argumentative, but felt I had to write that down.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

1. I’d prefer anything to some jerk waving a gun in the cabin and shooting the first A-rab he sees.

2. How exactly can a marshal inform “the ground” without anyone knowing?

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

I think its a good move. What would you rather have as a passenger, some crazy hijackers taking control of the plane and no one trained in what to do or someone there who doesnt neccersarily have to act instantly but who has been trained and may have a way of notifying the ground of the situation on the aircraft without anyone knowing.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

“but the terrorists are trained killers, who I am sure will know how to overpower the average passenger.”

Yes, and very likely overpower the police officer as well. What good is a police officer with a gun when several terrorists stand up and put blades to the throats of other passengers or cabin crew? What does the police officer do? Shoot anyway? Or put down his weapon? You know the terrorist won’t give up, they want to die. Either way, the terrorist wins, he gets to die for his/her cause.

“I’m thinking that the police will know what to look for.”

Same as they did on September 11th? Or on July 4th? Or with the snipers in Washington? Police and Intelligence are two words that really don’t sit well together.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

So suddenly policemen are superheroes huh? Disarming militants with karate kicks rather than simply pull a trigger…I think not.

Israel and the US/Canada are countries which celebrate the gun culture. Armed marshals are acceptable to their people. The UK and Europe as a whole, is different. We don’t “do” the gun thing.

Also, to suggest that El Al’s relative security is because of armed air marshals is a falsehood. There’s lots of factors at play in that particular case.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-12-02 AT 06:14 PM (GMT)]I believe that this is a positive step.

Yes, these individuals will have weapons, however, they are also police officers, they know more than one way to disarm someone who may be intending to cause harm. Yes, passangers are able to over power their assailants, but the terrorists are trained killers, who I am sure will know how to overpower the average passenger. I’m thinking that the police will know what to look for. I believe that if I was a pilot I would feel better knowing the was an extra measure of defence on board.

All flights into Washington’s Regan airport require a marshall or you can’t land there.

I don’t believe that El Al’s use of air marshalls has much to do with bombings within Isreal, a bus will always be easier to get aboard than the logistics of an airplane. Though, police, as far as I understand, do attempt to seek out and stop suicide bombers.

Canada will likely be adding more marshalls in the new year on certain routes.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

Bad idea. This scheme is just going to cause panic amongst passengers.

British Airways even had doubts about the scheme.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

“El Al – they use them, they have no problems”

The airline doesn’t, no. It could easily be said that the use of marshalls on their aircraft has dissuaded terrorists from attacking their aircraft, but has that success just channelled the terrorists into attacking other areas of Israeli society? Car and bus bombings are routine as are attacks on other ‘soft’ targets.

I really don’t think El Al’s much publicised success is a good enough reason to put armed marshalls on UK aircraft. At best it will only encourage the terrorist to attack something else. If security is increased and maintained at a high level, this would largely make the marshalls an unnecessary risk.

And the term Marshalls? Smacks of John Wayne and the clearing up of the ‘old west.’ They could have come up with something which sounded more professional – airline protection officers maybe?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

El Al – they use them, they have no problems

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

It will also encourage the usual “oh good, we’ve beaten terrorists” attitude which will be abruptly ended next time they strike.

Ie. the presence of cowboys will encourage people to take their eyes of the ball.

RE: Air Marshalls on U.K Flights

If it works, great I shall be mightily pleased. If it doesn’t we are in for a disaster. There are one or two aspects of this that do worry me.

1. You are placing, deliberately, someone on an aircraft with a weapon. Someone has already stated that although low velocity rounds might not penetrate the fuselage they would still penetrate the passengers, hopefully the terrorists/hijackers. But the round can’t tell the difference can it?

2. You have somebody on board with a weapon who is ostensibly there to protect you. But can you guarantee that person will act correctly if called into a situation where they might have to use their weapon?
Can you guarantee their state of mind?

3. If you have terrorists on board in groups like those on September 11th, they don’t even need to take weapons on board. They have access to at least one on the aircraft. If they are fanatics eager to sacrifice themselves, losing one or two to locate and secure the weapon would be considered acceptable.

4. Airport security apparently still leaves something to be desired. If marshalls are put in place is it not likely that security will become lapse again?, after all, there’s a marshall on board.

Regards,

kev35