air taxi, is it feasable?

I think the biggest road block for air taxis is airspace. There is only a limited amount of it especially in large metro. areas and the larger aircraft will/should get the priority. A jet carrying 5 passengers takes up as much space in the ATC system as a jet carrying 50-100 passengers. The economics of the VLJ’s won’t make them a priority in future plans for ATC. I think governments would rather have a viable airline industry rather than air taxi.

Just wanted to bring this thread back to the fore now that Richard Branson wants to start an air taxi service, and I’m note computor savy enough to link this to a different thread .

Please accept my apologies SCHORSCH.
Make no mistake about my idea ,it is just that,an idea that stays in my head whilst trying to get through a night shift.i’ve said before that i agree with you about regulation I’m also with you on the industry being a little conservative. It’s good to know i’m not alone.
As a foot note i don’t imagine these ports as being official airports as such just ports of call for the use solely of the operater keeping the number of aircraft movements to a minimum.May be i’m anticipating the problems of legislation.
To chornedsnorkack. From what i’ve seen of helicopter operations and a few flights in helicopters they rarely take off vertically to operating height.They gain speed in forward flight before gaining any significant height .With this in mind autogyros and VSTOL jets should be capable of using current larger heliports.

I think the best compromise between regislation/risk/cost and the offered service may be to operate light jets or Turbo-Props specially adapted for short-field operation.
Generally the issue is less the type of aircraft but the offered service and of course the price. Today’s business jets are too expensive for most potential customers. Additionally is there a perception in Europe that business jet usage is a waste of money and reflects the vanity of the upper management. So, to impress companies you have to prove them without doubt that you save them money.

Ren Frew, the Father Ted reference….nice work. haha that was a good espisode

Please accept my apologies SCHORSCH.
Make no mistake about my idea ,it is just that,an idea that stays in my head whilst trying to get through a night shift.i’ve said before that i agree with you about regulation I’m also with you on the industry being a little conservative. It’s good to know i’m not alone.
As a foot note i don’t imagine these ports as being official airports as such just ports of call for the use solely of the operater keeping the number of aircraft movements to a minimum.May be i’m anticipating the problems of legislation.
To chornedsnorkack. From what i’ve seen of helicopter operations and a few flights in helicopters they rarely take off vertically to operating height.They gain speed in forward flight before gaining any significant height .With this in mind autogyros and VSTOL jets should be capable of using current larger heliports.

Hi Schorch, in response to your comments questioning the demand for such a service. Read the thread titled “Problems with Copterline”.up to 1200 passengers a week sounds like demand to me,and thats for expensive helicopters.Anyhow, have fun with my proposed service,expand ,develope or ridicule it as you see fit.

Hmm, I don’t have any number concerning the demand for such a kind of transportation. I just recognize that industry is rather conservative in some ways.
Your proposal is interesting. But the problem is not the land (there is plenty of room, even in crowded cities), but the regulation connceted with an airport. It is just not as easy to set up an official airport. Using something like a tilt-rotor will bring up major issues concerning costs, mainetance. Noise may be a problem. You will have to fight with more or less rationale safety concerns.

I wouldn’t say you project is not feasible. But I would say you are very optimistic.

BTW: My nickname is SCHORSCH (not Schorch). Maybe a little bit tricky to prounounce it your english tongues.

VLJ

Well, note that the Avcen VLJ is a STOL. Not VTOL

Which means that it requires an infrastructure of STOLports.

Copters, like Copterline on Tallinn-Helsinki run, Faroe internal lines, Gibraltar crossing and Malta-Gozo are VTOL. They require very small landing pads.

So, if you want to design a STOL craft, whether an autogiro or a STOL fixed-wing craft, what would be its advantages over conventional helicopters? Less fuel burn/longer range? Higher cruise speed?

Hi Schorch, in response to your comments questioning the demand for such a service. Read the thread titled “Problems with Copterline”.up to 1200 passengers a week sounds like demand to me,and thats for expensive helicopters.Anyhow, have fun with my proposed service,expand ,develope or ridicule it as you see fit.

OK here’s an idea for you to get your teeth into. We can forget the idea of a taxi service but maybe operate a shuttle service between major cities.To eliminate the major stumbling block of current shuttle services we will not operate from airports and remove check in by operating first come first serve system.Whichever vehicle is chosen it should be ,say ,a 12 seater be it VTOL jet ,tiltrotor or autogyro.The service would operate a circular route calling at all the cities in the loop.This circuit will operate clockwise and anticlockwise,and having no more than two craft at any port of call at any one time,thus cutting down on the required space.
Now it starts to get a little optermistic.The ports would be based at major retail parks in each city .They will operate from the roofs of major retail outlets who retail out of large warehouse style buildings.This hopefully cuts the cost of land by sharing it with a third party.Obviously these buildings would have to be specifically built but it’s not inconcievable.This now splits the cost of the operation between three parties ,the operator(be it a recognised aircraft carrier or a large coach operator),the retail chain,and the aircraft manufacturer(obviously one wanting to promote its product).
Legislation is unlikely to be forth coming but we can always dream.
It’s going to be intresting to see you rip this apart but if you feel like it offer up another solution.

With current fuel prices, I don’t think many can afford it.

Gentleman,
When I saw this post I was thinking about the Bell 609. Would that work?
http://www.bellagusta.com/air_ba_main.cfm. Here is the web page for the 609.

Dan

Nice…like it, but not sure it would be suitable for city locations (i.e london) unless it was used for tall skycrapers that had helipads on the top… 😀

Gentleman,
When I saw this post I was thinking about the Bell 609. Would that work?
http://www.bellagusta.com/air_ba_main.cfm. Here is the web page for the 609.

Dan

Sorry for the ENIGMA-talk. VLJ means Very Light Jet.

I generally doubt the necessity and even if there is a demand I wonder why nobody is servicing this with existing planes. We have at the moment business aircraft that could actually fit in the category “air taxi”.

If considering the time saved by using air taxi instead of conventional air service, car or railway you will have only minor savings but higher costs. These costs are only acceptable for high raked executives.

And please lets accept that high ranked executives normally don’t have their office somewhere in the countryside. I would say the VLJ or top-class turbo-props and piston props are here to stay for long.

Hi Schorch,i’ll open up by admitting i don’t know what VLJ stands for, could you enlighten me please.On that note i would say that i do not expect any aircraft with VTOL or VSTOL capabilities could out perform a conventional turboprop or piston aircraft on operating costs,however it is the VTOL/VSTOL capabilities that make the air taxi a possibility.
Reguarding operating costs ,the Groen Bros Hawk 4 has lower operating cost to a similar helicopter(i would imagine that means Bell jet ranger)whilst having a negligable take off distance of 25feet.It also has higher max speed.
I will conceed that the Cartercopter CH 45 may be a little large to be a viable taxi/bus service in that it would need larger areas to land and take off but i see it as better design concept to tilt rotor.I believe it could still be a useful commutor tool into airport hubs though.
My second confession is I do not know ANYTHING about the ATC side of life.I know it’s a necessity and I also know i would prefer my pilot (not that i have one)to have the use of their services.This question was posed in the origonal thread though.
Finally , I’m with you on your last point about regalution.Should any of these ideas have any credibility I would imagine the main obsticale would not be one of finance or demand ,it would be that of trying to gain the necassary regulations .We in Europe do not seem to like pioneering ideas.

Question: Do you think a VLJ can outperform a turbo-prop or piston aircraft in terms of cost? I don’t think so. And I doubt that there is e real demand. Because no matter what airplanes are there to come, you always need
– a pilot (certificated, waiting and getting hungry)
– an airstrip with proper clearance, not just a crop field
– ATC unless you restrict yourself to sunshine-taxi

The biggest cost would be the owner-cost of the aircraft, so that everything except VLJ or conventional prop drops out (especially this CH-45 thing).

The most realistic option would be a conventional prop with optimised operation cost (single-hand IFR, low-maintenance engine, minor maintenance). Everything else is unrealistic at least in central Europe (incl UK). Feasible and practical maybe in remote areas with less ATC-issues and less regulation-happy authorities.

Thanks SteveO. The Cartercopter design is exactly what i had in mind for a city to city or town to city airborne bus service.Link this with other public transport services and i think airtaxi’s/busses cold work.

This is probably inrelevant but to those willing to charter a chopper for a day it’s £950 + VAT

If you really mean ‘for a day’ that’s a bargain. 😮

Moggy

I was thinking fixed wing, I had always presumed that Loganair did a service between the two…just goes to show how wrong I can be! :rolleyes:

There’s been the odd attempt at doing it between Glasgow and Edinburgh over the years, I think Air Ecosse or was it someone else had a go in the 80’s using an Embraer Bandeirante ???

Seem to recall Burnthills Aviation trying it with a Bell Jetranger too, if my feeble memory serves me well?

Of course there also used to be an inter LHR-LGW air taxi operated by British Caledonian helicopters, using their Sikorsky S-61’s way back in the late 70’s and 80’s.

By Heli or Fixed wing? I flew a manx flight from EDI to GLA, but I don’t know if there is anything now. A Heli would prove useful due to reduced check in, but a normal commercial flight would loose any time benfit with all the check in guff.

I was thinking fixed wing, I had always presumed that Loganair did a service between the two…just goes to show how wrong I can be! :rolleyes:

i’m with you on the Fairy rotordyne.Another case of right plane wrong time.I don’t supose anyone in the UK is developing anything similar?

Not really, but AgustaWestland has proposed a compound variant of the Merlin which might prove useful.

This Cartercopters CH-45 Heliplane looks good http://www.cartercopters.com/ch-45.html