Airbus A350 / A370 …. The next attempt!

hey I had similar veiws on the older 350 does it get me a watch too? ? ?

Anyways – the 350XWB looks good technology wise and airbus is fully competant to pull it off , however there isnt much available on it therefore we’d have to wait . From what i see it is a larger aircraft as compared to the 787 and is more fitting as a size in between the 787 and the 777 . My veiws on this move have allready been stated on the XWb thread , I would love to get some of the other veiws regarding how this aircraft would do specially when compared to the 787-9 and the 777 models .

What? Would you like a medal? Gold Watch? 😎

Please :p :diablo:

A400M

BTW, in the September Issue of Flug-Revue was also a picture of the first A400M fuselage. From July 24th on , the four sections will be automatic joined with a new bolt machine in Bremen, then at 8 stations the fuselage will be fitted with all systems including the cargo load system. A Beluga will fly then the 32m long fuselage for final assemble to Sevilla in Spain.
In Filton began the assembling of the first wing for the A400M, which will be ready in Q1/2007.

I feel somewhat vindicated by the new A350XWB

When I voiced my opinions that the old A350 and its 4 different versions just weren’t up to the job I was accused of Anti-Airbus sentiment and ridiculed.
Now… Airbus have ditched that abortion of a plane for this more magnificent new design.

Sorry to drag up the past, but I just had to say…. Told ya so! 😎 :diablo:

A350 XWB “Morebus”

A very interesting article in English about the A350 XWB “Morebus” in the german aviation magazine Flug-Revue:
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft06/FRH0609/FR0609b.htm

The A350 XBW now has an oval-shaped fuselage with a 5.91m fuselage diameter (A300: 5.64m) with steeper side walls, accommodating a full nine Economy seats in each row, large cabin windows and an additional overhead area.

As John Leahy, Airbus Chief Commercial Officer and Chief Operating Officer – Customers, explained, “The A350-1000 will be the A340’s successor.”

I actually don’t see why the big fight over 787 vs 380. Boeing says less stopover, longer flights with less passengers in a plane. Airbus says huge congestion coming, huge aircraft needed. And i think they’re both right. There is and there will be market for both planes, especially with the relatevely low productio rate of 380, need for such planes will always be higher than what airbus can deliver.

DC-10 and Lockheed Tristar were built as shorthaul widebodies, as was A300. However, they competed against B737 and A320… and the result seems to be that most shorthaul flights are now on narrowbodies. DC-10 is out of production, Tristar out of production, Boeing 767-200 non-ER out of production, A300 line being shut down…

The only new shorthaul widebody replacing them is 787-3, which suffers poor sales. Shorthaul planes are somehow better.

As for longhaul, the narrowbody 757 was a competitor for 767 et cetera. And that line shut down, too.

Thus, 787 and 380 are also competitors.

So most put 9 seats in 777, that’s certainly well within comfort level. Wasnt also whole hoopla bout bigger fuselage needed for 350 that one can’t cram 9 seats? It’s still a bit weird though, even if you put maximum of 10 seats in biggest 777 you still have bit less passengers than in a340 with 8 seats in a row. And diff in length of fuselage is negligable. Even if given 368 passengers figure is calculated with 9 in row, it doesnt quite add up. What is up with that?

About range of 777. 200ER has range of little over 7700 nm while 300ER is just under 7900 nm. For comaprison, 787-9 is quoted to have range of 8800 nm, while 8 and 10 models will have little under 8500 nm range. Only model of 777 that has superior range to any 787 is the newest one, 200LR, with 9400 nm range, achieved by engines that are comparable in tech level to newest stuff on 787. So, while there might be an odd model still out, it will be in minority, while most of 777 might find itself on the way out, especially when 787-10 comes out.

bring it on, your link is indeed to older version, it includes the figure for old, narrow fuselage cross section.

I actually don’t see why the big fight over 787 vs 380. Boeing says less stopover, longer flights with less passengers in a plane. Airbus says huge congestion coming, huge aircraft needed. And i think they’re both right. There is and there will be market for both planes, especially with the relatevely low productio rate of 380, need for such planes will always be higher than what airbus can deliver. Of course we wont see them everywhere like 787, but you can bet that on the most congested routes they’ll be a common site.

Real battle will be in ten years time anyway, with 737/320 successors.

787-3 has absolutely no competitor from airbus. extra seats versus range seems to be something boeing believes in a lot.

yeah, that’s why they say there’s no market for the A380, and airlines would rather have 777ERs, to have smaller aircraft on more frequent routes.

Personally, I still can’t see how that fits in with lack of slots, certainly in Europe.

With no orders yet, its sale possibilities are no better or worse off than its competitor, even if it does fly full 2 years earlier.

It cant really get any orders before it gets launched now can it!!!

787-3 has absolutely no competitor from airbus. extra seats versus range seems to be something boeing believes in a lot. And they may be right, with air traffic on the whole increasing. But, they may be right in the wrong time. So far model 3 got 43 orders, all of them back in 2004 when plane was launched. It could be airbus will offer something similar when time is right (as converting its a350-800 is doable) or it is waiting to get next gen 320-class which might also cover higher seating than current a321.

I am also as surprised as you to see that the -3 has only got 50 or so orders (If that is indeed true) however that is still a significant no. and boeing obviously feels that it is a market that will over the years need to be fueled regularly and they have a product that meets the criteria ready long before Airbus even decides to go that route.

But one has to remember that right now, all the know about the A350XWB is what Leahy is feeding the masses at FAS. And he’s not know to be a straight talker… (what salesman is?!). What I’m saying is, we are a long way off from definative info on the A350 so any analysis is futile untill we get some hard numbers.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/a350-900_specifications.html

Found this although it might be older data on the now dead A350!!

boeing on the other hand, is using 787 to more or less replace 777-200, with -300 still being on the table at least until 787-10 comes along. 30 seats more shouldn’t be much of a reason to stick with 777-300 unless range is bigger which doesn’t seem to be the case.

the 200 and 300 series will live with there ER versions which offer greater range!!!

Conda, thank very much for your information on the A400M program! 🙂

A400M to Replace the RAF C-130

Yes, A400M MSN001 is under manufacture and assembly. I was recently redirected onto MSN001, to do some work that was missed out, and that will shortly transform into the MSN007 program of activity to develop the production standard aircraft, as was done with the A380.

I was once told that there is never time to get it right once but there is always time to screw it up and then do it again correctly…………

Most of the A350 wing team has dispersed to other projects, but there are still a few people doing trade studies and working on the development wing cover in the structures department, hopefully they will be given the latitude to explore avenues not previously considered during the A350 training session.

coanda

Thank you for information 😎

James

OK – I think most B777 operators actually have 9 seats abreast in Coach. Sometimes it is 2-5-2, sometimes 3-3-3. Some operators have 10 abreast, too. I they have 8 abreast, 2-4-2, it would be Premium Economy.

Do help out, it’d be greatly appreciated. Especially explaining the 777 seating question, if you can. And of course analysis is based on figures given for 350 at farnborough, for what they’re worth. If they’re bunch of lies then of course this analysis is flawed too. Luckily, airbus has little time to spare so we should be getting further, more concrete info on 350 within months. Similar with 787-10, boeing will be pressed to push it into higher gear now so additional info is also around the corner.

There are a few errors in your analysis.
I do not have the time right now to help out and correct them. Will try later, if no one else picks up on them first.

But one has to remember that right now, all the know about the A350XWB is what Leahy is feeding the masses at FAS. And he’s not know to be a straight talker… (what salesman is?!). What I’m saying is, we are a long way off from definative info on the A350 so any analysis is futile untill we get some hard numbers.

Lets put some numbers down for comparison.

b777
200 model has 305 seating, 64 m long
300 model has 368 seats, 74 m long
both have cross section of 6.19m.

a340
300 model has 295 seats, is 63 m long
600 model has 380 seats, is over 75 m long.
both have cross section of 5.64 m.

Now, while b777 does have slight advantage in range, and perhaps
it carries more fuel rather than extra passengers, theres still a big
discrepancy in cabin seating area versus actual passenger seating number.
Does anyone know what are seat widths used? Cause, only way these numbers make sense (and they must, as they’re official figures) is if airlines using boeing decided to go for wider seats rather than more seats per row. So even though b777 is over half a meter wider it still has same number of seats per row. Also, info about used seat arrangements would be helpful. Ones i’ve flown in, had 2+4+2 arrangements, i’m talking both a340 and b777. Must say i didnt notice any extra seat width, if there was any.

So they were pretty comparable, those two planes. 4 v 2 engines decided that match, fewer always being more fuel efficient.

Now we have the following:

b787
8 series seats up to 250, is 57 m long.
3 series seats up to 330, is 57 m long.
9 series seats up to 290, is 63 m long.
10 series, though there’s no official data from boeing yet, is rumored to seat up to 350, with longer fuselage a must, figures thrown around are 68-70m long.
all the planes have a cross section of 5.75 m.

seeming discrepancy in length/seats is clearer when one knows 8 and 9 have 2.5 longer range over 3.

a350
800 series seats up to 270, is 59 m long
900 seats up to 314 , is 65 m long.
1000 seats up to 375, length not known, assumed around 70m.
all the planes have cross section of 5.82 m.

It is quite visible that airbus, with its 350 line is completely replacing both its 330 and 340 lines. (give or take a seat, range assumed to be comparable)

boeing on the other hand, is using 787 to more or less replace 777-200, with -300 still being on the table at least until 787-10 comes along. 30 seats more shouldn’t be much of a reason to stick with 777-300 unless range is bigger which doesn’t seem to be the case.

It is also visible that 787 is quite close to 777 in seating/length arena, even though 777 is 44 cm wider. Again makes me wonder just what is up with seating in 777? Why so few seats for so much area?

8,9 models of 787 will have a strong competitor in 350 quality wise, question of course being how many new buyers will come along? Because it’s pretty logical that airlines which have already bought 787 will stick with that for repeat purchases in the same class. 8 model is much better positioned of course, with 281 orders verus 68 for model 9.

10 model seems to be comparably worse off, being only on drawing boards with a rumored launch date of no earlier than 2012, versus 2014 for a350-1000. With no orders yet, its sale possibilities are no better or worse off than its competitor, even if it does fly full 2 years earlier.

787-3 has absolutely no competitor from airbus. extra seats versus range seems to be something boeing believes in a lot. And they may be right, with air traffic on the whole increasing. But, they may be right in the wrong time. So far model 3 got 43 orders, all of them back in 2004 when plane was launched. It could be airbus will offer something similar when time is right (as converting its a350-800 is doable) or it is waiting to get next gen 320-class which might also cover higher seating than current a321.

A very smart move by Airbus , although It would cost a ton to develop/manufacter (10 billion euros if evrything goes according to plan) it would give them a better chance of getting more orders then the older A350 had. However I still feel boeing is going to dominate this market it allready has some 20+ airlines on order which means that all these airlines would invest in logistics to cater to the 787 therefore they would have to think twice about buying A350’s and taking in the extra integration cost. boeing quitely hopes 500+ orders or commitments by the time the first flight takes place and has so far done excellent in reaching that figure. The A350 also has a model that positions itself nicely between the 777-200ER or the proposed 787-10 and the 777-300ER which is a nice thing to have really however how big is that niche market no one really knows . (market between airlines who want more then 300 seats but less then 375 – 380 ) . This is going to be tough competition from Airbus and I guess After the Blunders of boeing in the 90’s the team is well prepared for this . The real fight would obviously be when the 320 and 737 replacements are sought!! Mululy has been quoted saying that Airbus wanted to have a new single aisle aircraft by 2012 and he has also been talking about composite 737 so things are begining to heat up nicely and we should have newer projects comming up in the next decade or so . Boeing Marketting guru Randy Beasler has this to day –

It’s interesting to note that two out of the three proposed A350 models are presented as taking on the 777. But the 777 cabin is over 10 inches wider than the latest A350. What happens then to the “extra wide body” claim? …….

Right now there’s not nearly enough information available for anyone to make an independent assessment. But I do think that the A350 seat counts and other claims put out on Monday may be a bit skewed.

When they compare their airplanes to ours, they seem to compare each model with an airplane that is significantly smaller, rather than like-size. And they compare the two on a per-seat basis.

For example, their A350-800 (which they claim seats 270) is compared to the 787-8 (at 242 seats). They say the Airbus product would have about a 6% advantage in fuel consumption per seat. Well in my view, the more appropriate comparison is with the 787-9, which seats 280 – only a 10 seat differential, rather than a 30 seat differential.

I suppose the reason they don’t do the more comparable comparison is that the “6% advantage per seat” would probably end up being in favor of the 787-9, with possibly an even bigger advantage.

And to really tell the whole story you need to start the comparing in the 200-250 seat segment where the 787-8 is positioned. Airbus has no entry in this market. And it’s a very significant market. In this sector the demand for replacement airplanes alone (A300s, A310s and 767s) is 1,500 airplanes!

Yes, A400M MSN001 is under manufacture and assembly. I was recently redirected onto MSN001, to do some work that was missed out, and that will shortly transform into the MSN007 program of activity to develop the production standard aircraft, as was done with the A380.

I was once told that there is never time to get it right once but there is always time to screw it up and then do it again correctly…………

Most of the A350 wing team has dispersed to other projects, but there are still a few people doing trade studies and working on the development wing cover in the structures department, hopefully they will be given the latitude to explore avenues not previously considered during the A350 training session.

coanda

A400M to Replace the RAF C-130

After the A300, A320, A380 and soon the A400M might be the 5th fuselage with a different diameter.
That would mean new machines and tools…. So before the plane flies, a lot of Euros would be spent in new tools, machines, factories etc..
(Note: The A310 and A330/A340 have the same diameter as the basic A300.)

Is that still going on the A400M? I know the RAF are getting them too replace there C-130 then it went all silent so is it still up and about 😀 😎

James

Except that race was more about prestige and this one is about taking and holding a fair chunk of the market. Also, a350xwb is bigger than old a350 and seems to be covering, with its 3 versions, both a330 and a340 markets, both in seat capacity and range. That is only smart thing airbus could’ve done really. going head to head versus 787 with a smaller plane would be playing to boeing’s advanatage, seeing how they have a 4 year head start. new a350 is going to go against 777, where it can hurt boeing more than it could’ve against 787.

So where are they going to get the cash to develope it? :diablo: