Airbus' common cockpits vs Boeing's

At least in the US, and it’s probably true on the other side of the pond, the seniority system is used for nearly every work group at the airlines. Mechanics, flight attendants, rampers, gate agents, etc.

BTW, awesome picture!

Does the seniority system apply also for the in flight crew too? Air host/hostess???
I knew about it but never thought it was this big ‘a deal.

I bet this RAAF pilot couldn’t be bothered as he’s “burning” fuel away 😀

Originally posted by Moondance
What people on this forum may not appreciate, is exactly how important seniority in an airline is.

You’re right Moondance, the single most important thing to any airline pilot is seniority. A few years prior to making it to the airlines I did an intership with my current employeer and got a glimps at the roll seniority plays in a pilots life. I didn’t fully appriciate it until I had a seniority number and saw how unforgiving it could be.

I know quite a few people who decided not to rush to the airlines so they took their time building time and experience. Their reasoning was that at the time the airlines were hiring like crazy and they could apply a few months later when it was convienent. Big mistake. A lot of those people are on the street without a job right now or are so junior they get the scraps that aren’t bid for by other pilots leaving them based in other parts of the country with no hope of having a preference for days off. Meanwhile I’ve weathered the post-9/11 storm well enough to stay in my preferred base and hold a decent line. I never have said “I told you so” as that’s too much salt in an already deep wound but they’ve gotten a painful lesson in the importance of seniority.

When the axe started to fall on our seniority list putting people to the street, I heard a quite a few pilots say “If I was only hired 1 month sooner” or “If I was only 10 numbers more senior.” And as you said Moondance, there is nothing you can do about it. From the day you’re hired, your seniority number is locked in place and the only way you move up is if people leave or die.

Originally posted by Cyprioteagle
Flying dude,

You are correct that if an airliner adobted an all-airbus fleet would save some money, by avoiding some training cost and also having one pool of pilot for all the aircraft.

However, you have neglected other overhead costs like maintenance that would be relatively the same if you had a mixture of Airbus – Boeing fleet. An A320 would require its own set of spares, than the A319 or an A330 or A340. Even some older A320’s cannot take the same spares as the newer built A320.

Having a combination of Boeing and Airbus fleet, airlines have a relatively strong bargaining power as they do not rely entirely on one supplier of aircraft. So when the time comes to replace them or expand their fleet size they can get better negotiation terms, than be considered given that an airline is an all-Boeing or an all-Airbus!

Cyprioteagle,

Very good point and i overlooked maintanance indeed, and the fact that some older A320’s cannot take the same spares as the newer built A320’s is new to me…i’ve learned something new again 😉

Thanx!

Well said WD, quality of life is vital – didn’t realise how bad things were for some pilots in the US.
What people on this forum may not appreciate, is exactly how important seniority in an airline is. Your number on that list basically determines your career – when you are promoted (or demoted), what fleets you can bid for, where you are based, redundancy etc etc. A few places difference on a long list can make a huge difference to your life.
And seniority is not transferrable. If the most senior, most highly paid Captain in my company joined British Airways (for example), they would become the most junior First Officer, with a couple of thousand names above them on the seniority list.
Direct entry jet commands are available, mainly with start-ups and some of the expanding low cost operators, but most of the best employers in the UK adhere to a (reasonably) strict seniority system.

Ren, you get paid for what ever seat your seniority can hold. If you’re senior enough to get the left seat of the 747 then that is what you’ll get paid for. How much you get paid for being a captain is also dependant on how many years you’ve been at the company. So a captain who’s been at the company (not necessarily in the 747) for 10 years will get paid a 10-year 747 captain rate. Someone more junior, say 8 years, will get paid an 8-year 747 captain rate.

If the company goes through a shake up, like the fallout after 9/11, and fleet types start disappearing or being cut back you are only going to get paid what your seniority can hold. The year before 10 years at the company might have given you the opportunity to fly as a captain on the 747 but now they are down to 50 slots and those guys/gals who’ve been there for 11+ years get first shot at them. If all that is left for you is the right seat in a Cessna 152 then that is what you’ll fly and be paid accordingly. Sucks huh?

There have been many, many pilots who lost their captain seats in the last 2 years and took a 40%+ paycut as a result. By the end of this year any pilot with less than 15 years seniority at USAirways Airlines will be on the street without any pay. These pilots were hired in the late 1980’s and were Captains in the 737’s and A320 and are spending the last few months of their career as junior First Officers making a fraction of their original pay.

It’s pretty safe to say that any pilot who takes a pay cut did so because of changes at the company, not because he wanted to. With that being said, sometimes it benefits a pilot to move from a bigger aircraft to a smaller one. Why be number 99 out of 100 A310 pilots when you will be number 2 out of 200 pilots in the A320 fleet? There is a lot to be said for quality of life.

Ren – salaries increase annually with increments by about 2%. However, my company originally had an all narrowbody fleet. With the arrival of 767s, a widebody payscale was introduced. Subsequently the fleet was changed to all 757/767 and we were all qualified on the 767. Widebody pay for everybody (we innocently assumed) – not so, the original 767 pay scale (about 12% higher than basic) became a seniority based scale, with the most senior Captains & F/Os going onto the higher rate.
So when you near top of the pile (in either seat), pay rise time!
That becomes a pretty persuasive argument to stay (that, and a final salary pension scheme)

Flying dude,

You are correct that if an airliner adobted an all-airbus fleet would save some money, by avoiding some training cost and also having one pool of pilot for all the aircraft.

However, you have neglected other overhead costs like maintenance that would be relatively the same if you had a mixture of Airbus – Boeing fleet. An A320 would require its own set of spares, than the A319 or an A330 or A340. Even some older A320’s cannot take the same spares as the newer built A320.

Having a combination of Boeing and Airbus fleet, airlines have a relatively strong bargaining power as they do not rely entirely on one supplier of aircraft. So when the time comes to replace them or expand their fleet size they can get better negotiation terms, than be considered given that an airline is an all-Boeing or an all-Airbus!

Of course if the 747 captain worked for an airline, left that airline to fly 767’s for the airline in this scenario, he would have to accept whatever that airline’s rate was.

Why he would chose to do this would be another matter, especially if it were for less than he got before. I don’t know if some airlines pay more to pilots in smaller jets than others in other lines flying bigger jets.

Any comments from the flying guys ?

Ren, yeah it took me a while to get it but you are making perfect sense 😀
It can be a temporary measurement that the ex-747 capt flies a 767 as capt but i think some companies define temporary almost as definite 😀

True, but let’s assume the 747 captain is already more senior than the 767 captain. If you then ask the 747 captain to effectively downgrade planes you can’t cut his salary can you ?

There’s employment laws in place that say that, well in the UK anyway.

I mean there’s guys I work with who occassionally do work that’s strictly beneath their station, but they still get paid the same rate as they would doing their usual work.

Using your scenario, then as long as the 747 captain is only flying the 767 as a temporary measure then the rate he can normally expect should apply.

Am I making any sense ? :confused: (lol)

Originally posted by Ren Frew
Don’t most companies employ the same strategy and I don’t just mean airlines ?

My company, sorry corporation has seniority incentives such as higher pay and extra leave.

Not necessarily Ren, imagine a scenario where a 767 captain that started as a young pilot and work his way up and the airliner is expanding then a 747 captain gets hired to fly a 767 as a captain…i am sure they will pay the the ex-747 capt a whole lot more that dude who worked his way up.

Originally posted by The Flying Dude
i think Moondance’s company has an interesting strategy….the longer you are in service the more you earn.

Don’t most companies employ the same strategy and I don’t just mean airlines ?

My company, sorry corporation has seniority incentives such as higher pay and extra leave.

Ok regardless of a pilot’s personal preferences, an airliner would be much better off (I think) if all their pilots could fly any aircraft type in the entire fleet. Imagine how much money that could save an airliner. I mean take a look at a company like AA it is a joy to see so many different aircraft types assembled together under one carrier but i bet in terms economics it could turn out to be a disaster.

The only thing that will determine if the pilot is going to sit in the left or right seat is flight hours on the specific airplane. As far as salary is concern i think Moondance’s company has an interesting strategy….the longer you are in service the more you earn.

I just got home last night Peter. I have about 3 pics left on one roll, then I’ll go and develop the 3 rolls that I took. I’ll let you know. I forgot about RyanAir in that regards. As far as Southwest goes, I thought they parked the last of their -200’s? I know we don’t see them on the west coast anymore. I could be wrong.

Southwest and Ryanair spring in mind. Granted, the 732s are on their way out with both airlines.

Greekdude1, how did your pics turn out?

Sorry Matthew, but you are incorrect. If you do a 757 or 767 course your licence is validated for both types, the UK CAA regard them as different variants of the same type. As I said in a previous post, to transfer from one to the other is a minimal course. Once flying both types, the only recency requirements are to experience each type once every six months on the sim.
Practically, the differences in operating 757 & 767 are very small. The flightdecks and operating procedures are almost identical. The major systems differences are in hydraulics – just follow the checklist VERY carefully if there is a problem.
Many years ago I was dual-rated 737-200 & 737-300 (but the 300s had been ordered non-EFIS to ensure a degree of commonality – I’ve no idea of the current situation).
I’m sure the bean counters would have is all flying everything possible, but the CAA, being the voice of safety, have the final word.

As far as I know, it doesn’t take much for a pilot typerated on the 737-3/4/500 to get typerated on the NG’s. As far as the older classics go, not too many of those are around anymore anyhow. Besides, do any airlines operate the 737-1/200 and the NG’s to where this would be an issue?

I agree Moondance, in that I’d rather be spending time with my family as well. But the point I’m trying to make is, If I am an A340 captain, I obviously chose to fly longhaul and bring home an A340 Captain’s paycheck. There’s no way I’m going to step into the left seat of an A320 even though I’m qualified to fly it. I would think most pilots that fly the bigdogs have this mentality as well.

Originally posted by robc
You may be right but i remember reading somewhere that the 767 and 757 have the same exact cockpit, due to the 767 project being hurried or vice versa.

The 767 was never hurried, they were developed alongside one another, with the 767 actually entering service before the 757. As far as commonality goes, I think it’s fine and dandy that the A330/A340 has commonality with the A320 series and that pilots rated on one series can fly the other. But let’s be realistic here. If you’re an A340 captain on airline that also flies the A320 series, as you going to spend any time flying the little guys? I seriously doubt it.