Airbus calls on France to join European future fighter effort
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-calls-on-france-to-join-european-future-fight-438111/09 JUNE, 2017 SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL.COM BY: STEPHEN TRIMBLE TOULOUSE
A week before the Paris air show, the head of Airbus Defence & Space’s military aircraft division has called on France to participate in the development of a new airborne weapon system proposed by Germany and Spain to succeed the Eurofighter Typhoon.
“I really hope that France will be involved,” says Fernando Alonso, speaking to reporters on 9 June at Airbus media day. “We have to do this in Europe. There’s no place to do two or three different systems.”
The objective of a single European fighter programme first arose 25 years ago, but Germany and France pursued different paths: Germany joined with Italy, Spain and the UK to develop the Typhoon and France commissioned Dassault to produce the Rafale.
With the UK committed to withdrawing from the EU, Alonso’s invitation is currently reserved to governments within the bloc, describing it as “difficult” to have clarity on London’s future dealings with Brussels.
Last year, Germany and Spain partnered to draw up requirements for the New Generation Weapon System (NGWS), a proposed new fighter that would be developed under the Future Combat Air System effort, which includes other elements of air warfare technology, including unmanned air vehicles (UAV) and space-based capabilities.
In a planning document published last year, Germany’s Bundeswehr envisions that Typhoons will operate with the NGWS with some overlapping capabilities to allow for greater operational flexibility and smooth the transition from existing to future technology.
In previous fighter development programmes, France has insisted on preserving its legacy of designing and building complete aircraft, a tradition that began with the Dassault Mystère series and continued through the Mirage to the Rafale.
In the past decade, however, the country has teamed up with other countries to develop stealthy UAVs, such as the multi-national Neuron demonstrator and bilateral Future Combat Air System with the UK.
“The time is right for us in Europe to decide and to decide to build something together and be available for all of us,” Alonso says.
Germany and Spain invite France to join the Airbus program to develop a new successor for the Typhoon but reject the United Kingdom.
It explains why the UK has joined the TF-X program.
By: KGB - 21st June 2018 at 01:00
It is criminal that Holland or any of these Euro countries are buying F-35’s when the French have the capability of building world class aircraft right in the heart of Europe. ||The continent is should put their money together and get France to build a 5th gen Euro fighter
By: KGB - 21st June 2018 at 00:54
@Loke
Trumps behavior may start to change how Germany looks at defence… I think there is a slow change in Germany regarding this. The US has long pushed for all NATO countries to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Germany is far from that but the pressure is increasing. Something got to give in the end.
The whole 2% idea is just a number from US directed Nato think tanks. An arbitrary percentage is stupid. Germany could have 6 CVN carriers if they spent 2%.
Europe is making a Euro army and defense network not to meet Trumps demands but to eventually sever this US hegemonic control over Europe.
By: TomcatViP - 20th June 2018 at 23:21
My dear Sintra, it might be that you need some rest. Simply.
– stop here portraying me and being pejorative.
-The D in MoD means Defense where the administration interface b/w the gov and their army. When Generals are sanctioned when do their jobs by voicing their professional preference, this is not a sane, rationale (and cost efficient) situation. I’ll point you toward Belgium also. So, no, the epicenter is not where it should be.
– building the wrong plane won’t solve anything and the state of the industry will be as dire in effect as you portray it if Germany and Belgium would choose to buy the Panther. See Ariane 6 (I voiced my opinion on this too).
Thanks
By: Sintra - 20th June 2018 at 20:08
Where are the services RFI, RFPs?
On the exact same place that the USAF, VVS, PLAAF, or any other country with enough budget and national design and production capability, deliver them, with their national defense industry…
Where is the competition that nurture new aggressive way to search for innovations, performance and ensure efficiency?
OH, please describe me the massive competition that we have in places like Russia, China and so on, for aerospace combat capabiliy… Even the US with its absolutely massive military budget can only maintain two and a half national design teams in house.
Where you expecting that France could maintain two or three diferent companies capable of designing and producing cutting edge military aerospace with THAT kind of budget?! Or let me guess, you were expecting that the Adla/MN would open a competition to LM for their next fast jet capability?
Where is the epicenter of decision now?
Exactly where it should be, in the German and French MOD´s…
let the circus and the money burning start over
Thats rich! Do i have to remind you of every post that you´ve posted in this forum drooling about that, oh so much efficient program called the JSF?!
There are three basic options for the French/Germans (and British, Italians, Spanish, Swedes) for the replacement of their air combat capability, a) increase their defense budget and go national (the only ones who can go that route with ease are “Ze Germans”), b) pool their resources (what the Germans and French are doing) or c) buy American. I have absolutely no doubts on your favorite option…
By: halloweene - 20th June 2018 at 14:57
I love the idea of Air and Couscous! Where do I subscribe?
Nickname of Air & Cosmos on forum Air Defense.
By: TomcatViP - 20th June 2018 at 14:17
Portraying. This is exactly the reproach I have to this way of managing a mil program and your way of characterizing my opinion.
Where are the services RFI, RFPs?
Where is the competition that nurture new aggressive way to search for innovations, performance and ensure efficiency?
Where is the epicenter of decision now?
I will tell you, At the age of the much vaunted IA, there is not much more in program management here than what leads the misoginist view on Women: blondes are idiots and red hair whores (replace in context with your own choice of national industry)…
Great debates inbound. Colorful pictorial future for our program elites, let the circus and the money burning start over (again)!
By: Sintra - 20th June 2018 at 13:01
I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.
Last time i’ve checked Germany has been paying every single cent that it signed in contracts with the Industry.
By: Sintra - 20th June 2018 at 12:56
because that’s absolutely the path the EU industry has shown us in the past 20y: from the A400, Tiger, NH90 to the Rafale, everything has been cheaper and inherited from being late superior capabilities not even fielded 20 years before… Hoo-Ha
Because the competion has been, oh, so much better….
Programs like the ATF, JSF, KCX, LCS, DDG1000 have been such an outstanding sucess, on time and on budget, dont they?
And whats your proposal? Shutting down the military branches of Dassault and Airbus, while buying American, correct?
For someone supposedly French (am I correct?) I cant fail to noticed some very biased opinions AGAINST French and European programs…
By: TomcatViP - 20th June 2018 at 11:25
because that’s absolutely the path the EU industry has shown us in the past 20y: from the A400, Tiger, NH90 to the Rafale, everything has been cheaper and inherited from being late superior capabilities not even fielded 20 years before… Hoo-Ha
By: eagle1 - 20th June 2018 at 11:15
Rafale F4 in 2025 and possible super Typhoon for Germany in the mid 2020’s means that there will be some overlap. New airframes will be built in the mid/late 20’s, at least for the rafale.
The positive thing is that by then there will be a good feedback from exercises with so called 5 gen fighters to develop this new aircraft. It sometimes more confortable/less expensive/more efficient to come a bit later having seen errors from others. certainly F35 will be a benchmark to beat.
Germany has the lead for the future MBT.
By: Loke - 20th June 2018 at 10:16
I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.
Trumps behavior may start to change how Germany looks at defence… I think there is a slow change in Germany regarding this. The US has long pushed for all NATO countries to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Germany is far from that but the pressure is increasing. Something got to give in the end.
On verra.
By: djcross - 20th June 2018 at 09:24
I hope the French and Dassault are not expecting Germany to pay for anything. If so, it will languish like Typhoon development.
By: Loke - 20th June 2018 at 08:45
PARIS (Reuters) – France will take the lead in the development of a next generation combat jet with Germany under an agreement the two governments signed on Tuesday, the French defense ministry said.
The new combat jet is intended to replace from 2040 France’s Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) Rafales and Germany’s Eurofighters, made by a European consortium.
Very interesting that Dassault will take the lead — perhaps they have learned something from history…? If they can keep politics out of this then this fighter will become somthing quite impressive. If they can pick the best from French and German aviation industry.
I am surprised that they intend to have the new fighter ready as late as 2040 though… I woul have expected a bit more overlap between Rafale/Typhoon and the new fighter.
Now, what will Sweden do? And what options will the UK have, after Brexit?
Interesting times.
Edit: another article on this, with a few extra details: http://www.defenseworld.net/news/22722/France__Germany_Sign_Agreement_to_Develop_Rafale__Eurofighter_Successor_by_2040#.WyoGZvZuIic
By: JSR - 17th November 2017 at 17:45
The problem with EU is the clue less politicians. Since Trump tough with China. they bring usefulness of EU against China. not realizing that China importance will increase to EU.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/tony-blair-axe-files/index.html
Former British PM Tony Blair to Trump: Keep your allies with you
That change, Blair believes, will be the emergence of China as the dominant global power.
it already happening to Saudi who bought expensive weopons now have to import cheaper food.
https://sputniknews.com/business/201710301058656605-russia-grain-export-saudi-arabia/
https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Headlines/Safety-Legislation/Russians-rejoice-as-Saudi-opens-meat-trade
how many compromises EU will have to make if they start building 5G fighter?. look at the speed of Galileo navigation project implementation.
By: Distiller - 17th November 2017 at 08:34
Funny to see these EADS video game phantasies. Advertising an airframe for what? 2040? that is not more advanced than what is already operational today. Let’s face it. EADS desperately needs a new major programme, otherwise the military aviation branch is out of business after A400M production ends. And the Luftwaffe people also hope to re-expand their business after being starved for a quarter of a century. These video game phantasies are primarily driven by European industry policy, not defense policy. There is ever less common ground in the question what the capabilities of the next European tactical aerial system should be than back in the 1990’s when they decided to continue with EF2000. Defensive?
Offensive? Or even power projecting beyond the European periphery to “protect” resource areas in far away brown lands? Penetrating? Stand-off? Etc. Someone mentioned “old enemies”. That question is as legit these days as the question where Continental Europe stands between Anglo interests and Russian (and Chinese) interests. Things in Europe are way too much in a flux than to decide on a new manned fighter/destroyer now. Before such a system is initiated the political question of whether the Continental EU will really become its own entity and re-arm, or whether it remains a vassal of Anglo interests need to clarify. And I purposely use “need to clarify”, and not “need to be clarified”, since this question will not be decided in Europe. Maybe five years from now things are clearer …
By: TomcatViP - 15th November 2017 at 14:23
Enemies?…. wow!
Wish it will give you my dear friends a sense of the terrible backlog in troubles we face today. And if things seems moving at a slow pace, they are not in anyway a sign of any inactivity. A tremendous dynamism reigns under the surface in order to spur that old horse forward.
Good news is that “La pucelle d’Orleans” is alive and still have good hearing.
By: halloweene - 15th November 2017 at 11:27
I doubt you could find anyone in the UK that thinks of France as an enemy.
? Do you include Ukip supporters ? 😎
Anyway, you don’t want to build a 5th generation fighter because other than the lack of stealth the Rafale does everything else to earn that title.
WILL BE with F4 comm suite.
By: mrmalaya - 14th November 2017 at 21:57
Wow. Nicholas10, this is a new level of paranoia even for you.
I doubt you could find anyone in the UK that thinks of France as an enemy. I suppose your list of friends must be pretty short if you are going back centuries to define your enemies. What have you got Le Roi’s diplomatic policy to work to?
Which European country hasn’t fought the French at some point?
Bizarre.
Anyway, you don’t want to build a 5th generation fighter because other than the lack of stealth the Rafale does everything else to earn that title.
Enemies?…. wow!
By: Nicolas10 - 14th November 2017 at 20:50
France could afford a 5th gen if it wanted to. There is never a question to buy B1, B2, B21 & what not… we’re just talking about a 5th gen fighter there. If you put the US budget in relation to the US population & French budget in relation to the french population… France should be able to buy way more than just 5th gen fighter.
France is broke because it is run by traitors.
But hey let’s just ignore why we are broke and sabotage our ability to build fighter planes by partnering with our oldest enemies.
Nic
By: mrmalaya - 14th November 2017 at 11:33
If we look at this logically, it is going to be the case that France will share its production with other countries. The rabid nationalism is going to have to become a thing of the past.
However, if you only do it bilaterally, then there are plenty of examples where that has worked in the past. Don’t keep putting the Eurofighter delays up as a reason not to share production. The Germans were totally overwhelmed by the end of the Cold War, both psychologically and financially. That is the principle reason why Typhoon was delayed, more expensive than planned and involved a lower spec which in turn led to different standards being applied to different fleets where once they had look to something like uniform development. It is also the reason that the Tranche development structure died a death.
Very specific reasons why we don’t have uniform T3B aircraft flying around with CFTS, AESA and TVC armed with Meteor, ALARM etc etc.
Now, if you take the FCAS UCAV, and if my little find is what it seems to be (see the thread for details), it is perfectly possible to share enough of the development and production costs and still produce significantly differing designs suited to each of the two nations involved.
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June 14, 2017 at 4:18 pm