Aircraft Lost in the Thames Estuary

Hi and welcome to the forum. I’m not sure if you have seen this link at all?

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/112362

I am new to this but my husbands Uncle was declared missing During WWII and this is all I have found out. 

On December 27, 1944 he was piloting his P-51K-5-NT Mustang #44-11659 “San’tone Sweetheart” when he was lost due to bad weather. He crashed in the Thames Estuary on the North Sea near Clacton-on-Sea. 

any information would be appreciated.

Owl Racer accident report.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/5-1974%20G-AYMS.pdf

The only bit not salvaged was the 12 inches of propeller, which was not found.

Thanks Jamie

If you can send them over I will add them to the list.

Cheers
Elliott

Embarrassed to reply to this several years later 🙂

During Exercise Emperor on or around 14 October 1950

“Later the word filtered through that a Belgian Air Force Night Fighter had collided with a bomber in the Thames Estuary area.There are not expected to be any survivors.” Thats all there is on that.

I would assume that it would of been a RBAF Mosquito.

Collission between Belgian Air Force Mosquito NF.30 MB-18 (ex MM757) with a RAF Wellington. The aircraft collided near Birchington (Kent) and crashed into the sea at about 5 miles north of Margate. The Wellington came down in a swampy area between Birchington and Herne Bay. All crew (2 Belgian and 5 RAF) were killed. The belgian crew involved were Capt.Christian Henrard and Sgt.(nav).Joseph Tytgat.

I would like to know which RAF Wellington (serial, crew, unit,…) was involved.

Looking forward to your reaction.

Best regards,

Laurent Heyligen
(Belgium)

Buxey Sands makes perfect sense as this JU88 was the one excavated by Stan and David Brett along with Bill Gent in the 70’s for the Southend Museum. I always understood that the aircraft was off Southend but could never find Buxey Sands on the map I had. It didn’t help that I was young and didn’t have the right spelling.
I remember Stan saying that there was a lot of bombs etc in the mud when he first visited the site and I believe the dig was quite difficult. As I said in the earlier post I know they recovered an emergency surgical kit in a sort of wallet which was displayed in a showcase in the museum along with some of the smaller parts from the Canvey B-17 but I am not sure what else came back from the dig.

Went on the web to find out more about Dengie marshes. All I have found so far is in this link.
http://unlockingessex.essexcc.gov.uk/custom_pages/monument_detail.asp?content_page_id=89&monument_id=41790&content_parents=48,175&monument_type_id=&monument_name=&search_related=&admin_area_id=&period_from=&period_to=&selPeriod=&selStatus=&evidence_type=&media_type_id=&media_what=&easting=&northing=&grid_square=&freetext_content=&smr_number=&name=&email=&address=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=&q5=&q6=&q7=&q8=&q9=&mailme=&comments=

Not quite the Thames Estuary but very nearby – I
Just wondered if anyone knew anything more about the possibility of wrecks in that area.

Ah! Dengie marshes, It was a bombing and gunnery range. nearby wrecks included a JU88, albeit a little further out on Buxey Sands. A more ‘modern’ F-100 lost by the USAF and a few others that escape the memory. I seem to remember a story about a C-47 out on the marshes somewhere. Lots of unexploded ordnance was lying about and used to be cleared regulary by the Royal Navy in the early eighty’s.
The EAG recovered wreckage from a Mosquito from just off of the seawall in the Blackwater in 1981 or 82. The Hispano cannons were found lying in the seawall and poking out of the side like a pair of water pipes! These were recovered at the time and used to stand in our museum at Duxford.
I was treated to a tour of the different sights of Dengie marshes once by Mick Rushen, Peters brother. Happy days!

The concept of “we still own it” has been around in the UK since 1986.

It only hit US public notice when the USN started to apply it in the US courts.

A little background reading for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Military_Remains_Act_1986

In essence the MOD have ownership or custodial claims. You must apply to them to recover and declare all to RoW/MOD. After you have expended your money they may (or may not) gift ownership.

Ross

So let me restate the question then:D Is there any legal reason why none of these aircraft have not been gone after, I do understand that allot are buried in the mud and are only can be scene at certain times. But my god I would have a field day with all these different crash site. Just think of the Museum that you could build around the planes in the THAMES.

Maybe I’ll have to check up on UK Laws about underwater recovery’s they can’t be any worse then the United State Navy’s:diablo: 😮

Not quite the Thames Estuary but very nearby – I remember Stan and David Brett during their days at the Historic Aircraft Museum, Southend coming back from a trip to Bradwell and discussing with Bill Gent that there were aircraft visible in the mud off the end of the old Bradwell airfield.
They reckoned there had been some kind of practice range in the river off the end of the airfield and several aircraft had come to grief whilst using the range.
I know a large part of the airfield was taken over for Bradwell Nuclear Power Station so I would think access to any wrecks would be restricted and possibly damgerous as I assume that there must have been some radioactive output from the power station into the river over the years.
Just wondered if anyone knew anything more about the possibility of wrecks in that area.

Just read a book “Black Arrow Blue Diamond” by Brian Mercer. (pg50)

During Exercise Emperor on or around 14 October 1950

“Later the word filtered through that a Belgian Air Force Night Fighter had collided with a bomber in the Thames Estuary area.There are not expected to be any survivors.” Thats all there is on that.

I would assume that it would of been a RBAF Mosquito.

Someones mentioned the two B-17s near Canvey, but no mention of a Sunderland near the Kent side after the war that my Dad told me about.

Also got a few USAF accidents that are to the North of Manston if you are interested that far down the estuary.

On 24 Jan 1951 F-84E 49-2105 from the 308FES 31FEG crashed 4 Mi NE RAF Manston. The pilot was killed.

On 26 Jun 1951 F-84E 49-2055 from the 308FES 31FEG crashed after engine failure 3.5 Mi NE Dover. The aircraft was recovered and returned to service.

Both aircraft on detachment from Turner AFB GA.

Here are the pictures of the V2 remains salvaged from the Southend foreshore.

The salvage of the remains of a V2 V2 Terror Weapon is salvaged by crews at Southend Pier, the rocket fell just 60 yeard West of Southend Pier in October 1944 (exact date not published)

The salvaged remains are inspected by the crews on Southend seafront, Soputhend Pier is one of the Admiraltys most important bases dispatching convoys to aid the forces in thier relentless push accross a Europe.

The V2 still sticking out of the mud after it scored a direct hit on the Southend Pier Pavilion passing through the roof and the floor before embedding itself in the mud below without exploding the rocket was later salvaged and taken to a secret location for investigation.

hope you find them intresting.

Hi Elliott,

I was surprised too at how few losses were in the MACRs for the heavies. Possibly down to the curious American ideas for european geography.

The Channel seems to have stretched up to just off the Danish Coast and the North Sea down to Biscay!

>Tuesday 17th August 1943: 91BG Boeing B17 shot down crashing off North Foreland

This is you Isle of Grain aircraft. 42-30617 on 27/08/43, B-17F-115-BO, 327BS/92BG, “Miss Billie Jnr”.

Ditched on the return flight with all crew rescued by AS/R launch. Abandoned aircraft floated ashore at Isle of Grain/Sheerness and was pictured there. See Aeroplane Q and A JUne/Nov 1997.

>Monday 19th June 1944 6:20pm: Two B-17 bombers of the 379th Bomb Group collided in mid-air. The aircraft were flying back to base at Kimboltton, Huntingdon after a raid on a rocket site in occupied France 44-6133 captained by Lt A J Ramacitti was flying “tail end Charlie” this aircraft was seen to develop engine problems and lose height colliding with 42-97942 flown by Lt L L Burns. Ramacitti’s aircraft was seen to hit Burns’s aircraft just behind the pilot’s compartment; they locked together for an instant before falling away. The first aircraft (Ramacitti’s) was then seen to drop in to a power dive at around 8500ft before its wings were torn off by the stress and it crashing in to a minefield from where it could not be disturbed. The second aircraft (Burns’s) seed to be under control although it was rapidly losing height, it was at this point a number of the crew were seen bailing out. The aircraft was then seen to cross Canvey Point and make a left hand turn and head for towards the foreshore between Southend Pier and Canvey Point as if the pilot was to attempt to land the stricken aircraft on the mud. As the aircraft came down it took an angle of 45degrees and crashed nose first on to the mud and exploded burning with an intense heat leaving behind a deep hole. In total eleven crewmembers were killed. A few parts of wreckage can still be found because of the constant tidal action.

Details confirmed one crashed on foreshore and one below the high water mark.

Add to these Stork Club, 42-107109 on 10/05/1944 but this was salvaged on 12/05/44.

Regards
Ross

Thanks Jamie

If you can send them over I will add them to the list.

Cheers
Elliott

Here`s the Heinkel pic via a friend of mine, i have cropped it and excluded a lot of notes dated 1984, which list the crew, and possibly who shot it down etc. Is it the same picture as yours Steve, looks like that maybe a Mut on the wing !

Whitley_Project if you want any details from the notes written on the photo for your list, let me know, crew, serial number, markings and sqn who shot it down are all listed.

Hi Steve

If you can post them – that will be great.

Jamie-Southend…

Somewhere or other, I have two photographs of this particular He-111 which I discovered a few years ago. I found them in the little photography/model railway shop that used to be at the junction of Victoria Avenue and Fairfax drive. These two photo’s were in the window, and on enquiring, the shop owner told me that he had been posted on an AA gun on Foulness, and that the Heinkel had crash landed on the mudflats nearby their position. The two photo’s showed the aircraft looking very complete, with this guy and his mates standing on the wing (with obligatory dog) inspecting their prize.

I know I still have the photo’s somewhere, but can’t remember where! I do remember the aircraft having the KG-76 badge below the cockpit, if that helps the identity. The aircraft was complete, and judging by the close proximity of the sea wall and lookout tower in the background, very close to the shore. I would have thought that the aircraft would have been recovered, so am surprised to hear that it remained in situ…if indeed we are talking the same He-111.

If I find the photo’s, I will post them. I’m not sure if they have ever been published.

Regards;
Steve

Hi Ross

I think there were quite a few more American aircraft lost in the estuary – there is supposedly a B-17 still visible at low tide on the Isle of Grain. I went there about 10 years ago but couldn’t find anything – I recall being told that a boat is needed to access it.

There was also a P-51 recovered from the mud off Southend C. 1996 complete with the pilot. It had been found by a local fisherman who noticed the 0.50 Cals sticking up out of the mud. This story was covered by After the Battle magazine.

Not the Southend aircraft but located only a few counties away.

Just a taster for the moment until full news release next year.

Plenty of scope to increase your list.

Currently I have 47 RAF aircraft lost into the Thames, 48 Luftwaffe aircraft and 3 USAAF heavies. FAA is on the work bench at the moment but too little to make any estimate.

Regards
Ross

Foulness

Here`s the Heinkel pic via a friend of mine, i have cropped it and excluded a lot of notes dated 1984, which list the crew, and possibly who shot it down etc. Is it the same picture as yours Steve, looks like that maybe a Mut on the wing !

Whitley_Project if you want any details from the notes written on the photo for your list, let me know, crew, serial number, markings and sqn who shot it down are all listed.

Thanks for the correction on the Owl Racer. As I said in my post I don’t have my records with me and the memory isn’t as good as it used to be. An unfortunate incident nonetheless.

Foulness

Thanks Steve,

I don`t want to drift this thread too much, so sorry if i`m going off track.

A very good friend of mine has visited the wreck at Foulness certainly in the last 10-15 years, and i have seen some pictures of it at that time. I have to say i was very surprised it was there, and had not been recovered.

I can only presume that due to access to the island being restricted, and the fact that where it lies could be a “little dangerous” it has remained untouched?

Also i knew the owners of that Photography shop well, Stan Noyce and his wife owned it, Stan sadly passed away last year, he was a clergyman at the near by St Marys Church, and on his robes he proudly displayed his RAF medals he was awarded with during WW2.

Foulness Heinkel…

Jamie-Southend…

Somewhere or other, I have two photographs of this particular He-111 which I discovered a few years ago. I found them in the little photography/model railway shop that used to be at the junction of Victoria Avenue and Fairfax drive. These two photo’s were in the window, and on enquiring, the shop owner told me that he had been posted on an AA gun on Foulness, and that the Heinkel had crash landed on the mudflats nearby their position. The two photo’s showed the aircraft looking very complete, with this guy and his mates standing on the wing (with obligatory dog) inspecting their prize.

I know I still have the photo’s somewhere, but can’t remember where! I do remember the aircraft having the KG-76 badge below the cockpit, if that helps the identity. The aircraft was complete, and judging by the close proximity of the sea wall and lookout tower in the background, very close to the shore. I would have thought that the aircraft would have been recovered, so am surprised to hear that it remained in situ…if indeed we are talking the same He-111.

If I find the photo’s, I will post them. I’m not sure if they have ever been published.

Regards;
Steve