Aircrew brevets

A bit of gentle googling this morning found that the RO brevet was introduced by AMO A402/41,the wearers designated as Observer Radio.
The wearers were redesignated as Navigator Radio by AMO A1019/42.
But of course the Radio designation which may have caused a little confusion was merely an attempt to confuse the nastys as to the real purpose of this category of aircrew.
I had forgotten that the RO badge was reintroduced post war,as another poster asked,was it the same badge??presumably their designation would have been ‘Radar Operator’

Says a lot about the over rated status of drivers, airframe and a lot about the under rated status of all other aircrew.

JDK, I tracked down a copy of Ken Delve’s book, and it is on order:)

I was thinking of a library loan, or borrowing a mates’, but you’ll not regret it – remarkably useful book I find.

Thank you bazv, and in fact, all who contributed.
I have read the book, albeit a long time ago, and it now resides in the loft temporarily sorry to say. But all of the info received has been very useful.

JDK, I tracked down a copy of Ken Delve’s book, and it is on order:)

Sqdn Ldr Lewis Brandon DSO DFC

Was accepted for training as a night fighter Navigator and completed a 3 week course at Prestwick ( 5.5 hours).
He did not even go to OTU but was posted (as probationary Sgt)to nearby Heathfield (AYR) with 141 Sqdn who were converting from Defiant to Beau and not all the gunners wished to become RO’s.
After a month flying with 141 he was promoted sgt and awarded his RO brevet.
He states that they were officially known as Navigators Radio and confirms at a later stage were given the N badge.
He was not given a navigation course before commencing intruder ops and his book ‘Night Flyer’ is a really good read.

Cheers Baz

Hi Denis
In Lancaster at war 2 (Garbett & Goulding) one of the chapters is written by Ted Brooks who was a Wireless Operator.
He was trained at No4 Radio School Madley(10 weeks/12 flights).
After qualifying he was sent to No 3 Air Gunnery School at Castle Kennedy(6 weeks/8 hours… in Bothas !!!).
Upon qualifying as a gunner he was promoted sergeant and given the AG brevet ,he would already be qualified to wear the ‘sparks’ flash on his right arm.
So as Mark12 said , all WOps were gunners but not vice versa,on the big flying boats it was more complex as there would have been WAG’s,straight Gunners and also dual qualified fitters/riggers with AG badges.

“M” Brevet

It seems likely that the last official wearer of the “M” brevet was Sqn Ldr B D Hunt (2418988B), RAFRO, Class CC, who gained his brevet as NCO aircrew on 202 Sqn and who resigned his Commission on 1 Sep 85 after several years with the Mobile Met Unit (MMU) on Op CORPORATE at RAF Stanley. Also Wg Cdr C N “Tiny” Mentz (190129), RAFRO, Class CC, who Resigned his Commission shortly after CORPORATE was over and when he was OC MMU, was entitled, similarly, to wear the “M” brevet. It’s display on the then popular “Woolly Pully’s” caused some comment!
HTH
Resmoroh

Spoilsport:D

If you really can’t find a copy, drop me a PM.

You’ll find it worth tracking down though.

There is a comprehensive and authoritative (looking!) entry on the Brevet subject in Ken Delve’s ‘The Sourcebook of the RAF’. I suggest you track down a copy, as I’m not typing it all! 😀

Spoilsport:D

Originally Posted by bazv
I will have a look in Lewis B’s book tomorrow to check for any details.

Thanks!

Thanks for the replies all
I will go for the AG and shoulder flash for the 1943 period, It seems to be the most likely combination. After Jan 1944 it seems the ‘S’ or the ‘RO’ brevet would have been used.

Hi Denis
I dont think that the RO badge would have normally been worn by a main force bomber crew,as i posted previously,i am pretty sure the RO badge was primarily for the night fighter AI radar operators.After a certain date those still flying would have changed to the N badge.
It is difficult to be 100% sure with these things as there were (are) always exceptions and some of the night fighter radar operators may have been involved in development work (H2S etc ?).
I will have a look in Lewis B’s book tomorrow to check for any details.

Cheers Baz

There is a comprehensive and authoritative (looking!) entry on the Brevet subject in Ken Delve’s ‘The Sourcebook of the RAF’. I suggest you track down a copy, as I’m not typing it all! 😀

The ‘WAG’ is “hardest of all brevets to track down” but is an RAF brevet, not an RCAF one. However, it seems to have been inspired by a trades conference in Canada, so (I’m guessing) may have been a CATP item.

For W.W.II Ken has O, N, E, RO, B, M, S. as well as pilot’s wings. In addition AG post ’39, pre being the winged bullet.

HTH.

One not yet mentioned, possibly because it was peculiar to the Meteorological Reconnaissance Squadrons (517, 518, 519, 520, 521 and 251), is ‘M’ for Meteorological Air Observer, or MAO. In addition to met observing these men were also trained as Air Gunners and Navigators, although the AG segment was dropped in the summer of 1943.

The initial strength of the MAO Section (1943) was 10 officers and 50 NCOs, and by May 1945 had increased to just 28 officers and 137 NCOs.

Thanks for the replies all
I will go for the AG and shoulder flash for the 1943 period, It seems to be the most likely combination. After Jan 1944 it seems the ‘S’ or the ‘RO’ brevet would have been used.

The book i mentioned in my previous post was titled ‘Night Flyer’ by Lewis Brandon,he was also the stand in actor for Robert Donut on some films due to RD’s ill health.
What badge did the ‘Special’ operators wear on the Electronic Countermeasures B17’s by the way?at least one of them wrote a memoir but cant remember title!!

I was under the impression that the RO badge was specifically for the radar operators on night fighters,who were given very limited training and only for that role.At least some of these RO’s later wore the N badge and in his autobio Lewis Brandon describes becoming a self taught(with help from pilot!!)Navigator when they started flying intruder ops,I do not think he was ever given a nav course.
All that from memory,am away from home and cannot cross check to his book.

WOP/Ag

Have spoken to two WW2 Lancaster WOP/Ags recently. Both told me they always wore the ‘AG’ brevet. Both also said that the WOP/Ag role was really just a wireless operators role, but, as they had received the training, should something happen to one of the gunners, the skipper would be able to call on them to take over either the mid-upper or tail turret positions if the skipper decided the situation called for it.
One of them suggested that the skipper might have deemed it neccessary for all the guns to be manned over the target area, when the wireless operator’s job was likely to be ‘quieter’ that the early or latter stages of the trip.

What did you do in the war daddy?

I suspect that not all air-gunners were radio operators but it could be that all radio operators, at this period, were dual role air gunners.

I certainly worked with a colleague in the 1970’s who was Bomber Command and he always referred to himself as being trained as a ‘WOp/AG’.

Mark

Kev35= For all nine of his operations he flew as the Wireless Operator rather than an Air Gunner.

This seems to be the way it was for many Wireless operators Kev, no distict brevet until one was designed.

exmpa=There was a post war “RO” brevet issued for a brief period.

But was this different from the wartime RO brevet?.

Mark12=WOp/AG.

Does this help?

http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3A.htm

Mark12, thanks:) There are one or two websites like that , hence the post, I just cannot find a definitive listing. I have many old photos of aircrew, some of crews sitting around the debrief table ect, and apart from the shoulder flash and a partial glimpse of a brevet with a possible AG showing is the only way I can tell who was who.

It is beginning to seem as if there was no set time for the introduction of a Wireless/Radio operator Brevet, some were AG’s with a shoulder flash, some wore the ‘S’ after Jan 1944 and some wore ‘the RO’.
This begs the question, did all Radio operators in heavy bombers double as an air gunner if one of the regular gunners was injured or killed?.

WOp/AG.

Does this help?

http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3A.htm

Mark

RO radio or radar operator

There was a post war “RO” brevet issued for a brief period. This was a result of a perceived requirement for an aircrew branch dedicated to radar operation in for example the night and all weather fighters or the V-bombers. The experiment was brief and a failure and the few graduates of the scheme were subsequently given entitlement to wear the “N” brevet.

I only ever met one “RO” and he told me that one member of his course had arrived having failed both pilot and navigator training. This chap said the had been told “You might as well give this new branch a go”. If that was the case it is not really surprising that the experiment was short lived!

exmpa

I have a photograph of a Wireless Operator who was lost in a Lancaster in January 1943. He wore the Air Gunner’s Brevet with the Wireless Operator’s flash on his sleeve. For all nine of his operations he flew as the Wireless Operator rather than an Air Gunner.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

kev35