Airliner flight times in the old days

The original 707-100 had the non-fan JT-3(J-57) engine and didn’t quite have the range for reliably non-stop London-New York flights but was OK non-stop NY to LA. (Many were later re-engined with JT-3D turbofans)

Air-India and BOAC had the bigger Intercontinental model and theirs, (-400s) ,had the RR Conway engine which was briefly the best option around 1960/1961, gave reliable London-New York non-stop range but not US West coast to Europe non-stop.

The 707 Intercontinental was developed into the 707-320B/C of 1962 which had the JT-3D turbofan and improved wing which gave it the ‘6,000 mile’ range to fly US West Coast to Europe non-stop with a useful payload

The 707-100 was designed to satisfy the 4,000 mile range market. This increased with the JT3 engines over 6,300 miles with later versions (max fuel). Air India and BOAC were equipped with the -400 series which had the greater range.

Operational considerations; full load will reduce range and there may be passenger drop/collect options in the 1960s.

London to Bombay (as was) is 4400 miles great circle, so actual flown will be more. I can see at least one stop required, and the schedules of that time indicate that.

DAI

Ah thanks, great amount of info in this thread, but I couldn’t quite figure it, thanks for putting it into focus.

So, even though a 707 has the range for UK to India non-stop, would it have stopped anyway? (Sorry if someone has said already)

The 707-100 was designed to satisfy the 4,000 mile range market. This increased with the JT3 engines over 6,300 miles with later versions (max fuel). Air India and BOAC were equipped with the -400 series which had the greater range.

Operational considerations; full load will reduce range and there may be passenger drop/collect options in the 1960s.

London to Bombay (as was) is 4400 miles great circle, so actual flown will be more. I can see at least one stop required, and the schedules of that time indicate that.

DAI

So, even though a 707 has the range for UK to India non-stop, would it have stopped anyway? (Sorry if someone has said already)

… Speeds are those reported by ‘Captain Speaking’ so some are IAS, others ground speed.

Speeds reported to the passengers will be ground speed, and sometimes Mach number to impress. I doubt most passengers will have heard of IAS. Sometimes, with the aid of very strong North Atlantic jetstream, ground speeds can be ‘supersonic’ at 760mph.

Since the jet age aeroplane range has seen to most improvement. Concorde aside, subsonic cruise speeds for most types have remained in a narrow band between 0.78M – 0.86M for all aeroplane types.

Max speeds are high subsonic (0.88M – 0.92M) with a few being tested just supersonic at high altitude.

DAI

The London-Karachi record was taken by a PIA Boeing 720B on delivery in 1962 (probably unbroken today) and John Stroud recorded it all
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IOGCd7QreKgC&pg=PA225&lpg=PA225&dq=PIA+Boeing+720B+London+Karachi&source=bl&ots=phg9A0RN3G&sig=PX4aG-a-uQg6qlb75pHADFSt95M&sa=X&ei=DtY0UOKVGoeY1AWO04CwCA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=PIA%20Boeing%20720B%20London%20Karachi&f=false

In addition to the slight drop in average cruise Mach number(isn’t that set mainly by ATC?) present-day check-in/security times have ballooned since the Sixties (gone are the days when you could wave your ticket, passport and hand baggage at the check-in desk at Amsterdam and run through the piers in 5 minutes for the London Trident (or Electra or DC-9 or DC-8…..)

Looking to see if non-stop commercial flights London-Australia existed (not yet?) I found
http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Qantas%201st%20England-Aust%20non-stop%201989.htm

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-stop_flight

A bit earlier that you asked, but I was a passenger on the record-breaking flight LHR to Karachi in 1955. We flew in a L1049G Super Constellation of Pakistan International Airlines and took 17 1/2 hours with one stop at Cairo. A fascinating flight for a schoolboy.
Chris

Yes, 1969 puts you firmly in the period of Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8, Comet 4, Convair Cv.990. Indeed 1969 witnessed the first flight of both the Boeing 747 and of Concorde. Short haul was progressively being dominated by BAC.1-11, Caravelle, Douglas DC-9 and growing numbers of Boeing 737s, replacing Viscounts, Vanguards, Electras, Britannias, DC-6, Dakotas etc. Piston engined airliners were being relegated to developing countries and freight operations.

Having witnessed the arrival of KLM’s first DC-8, DC-9, B747 and subsequent newer aircraft and having started my career as an air traffic controller in early 1965, all of a sudden I feel very old now …………:)

If I read the data provided correctly on the “BOAC Standard VC10 1968 Summer Timetable” for BOAC flight BA778 departing London to Bombay between June and October 1968 – departs London at 1115hrs on a Tuesday and arrives in Bombay at 2300hrs on a Wednesday, with a “flying hours per service” time of 10.05 hours?

http://www.vc10.net/Data/1968_Standard_page1.html

In December 1970 my sister and I flew in a BOAC VC10 LHR to Bombay via Beirut and Abu Dhabi. I cannot recall how long it was unfortunately. I still have the menu for the flight somehwere.

Speeds are those reported by ‘Captain Speaking’ so some are IAS, others ground speed.

Hmmm… I think you’ll find they’re probably all ground speed. Just applying some simple rules of thumb to your 600mph IAS on the Gatwick to Dallas flight (and assuming a cruise of FL310 which was a good westbound level in those days) gives a True Air Speed (TAS) of roughly 985mph (855kts) or Mach 1.3! Rather slow for Concorde but a little too much for a Boeing 747, I think. 🙂
Pete

Heath Row to Drigh Road 1955

A bit earlier that you asked, but I was a passenger on the record-breaking flight LHR to Karachi in 1955. We flew in a L1049G Super Constellation of Pakistan International Airlines and took 17 1/2 hours with one stop at Cairo. A fascinating flight for a schoolboy.
Chris

While the first generation four-jet airliners (B.707/720, DC-8-10 to 50, Comet 4, CV880/990) could fly higher and further than the previous generation piston and turbine airliners, they were built to a requirement by the airlines to fly West Coast Europe to East Coast USA Transatlantic, or East Coast USA to West Coast USA Transcontinental. Todays technologies permit the latest twin-jet airliners to fly half way around the globe non-stop.

While my own long-haul travelling has been limited, pulling out my passenger log I find summer 1971 African Safari Airways Britannia 314 (longer range mark delivered new to Canadian Pacific) on a sole user charter Gatwick to Nairobi had to fuel stop at Benghazi en route (flight times 5 hours and 8 hours at 300-330mph).

In summer 1975 Dan Air Boeing 707-321 (delivered new to Pan Am) ABC charter flight, Manchester-Prestwick (to collect more passengers)-Vancouver, with a fuel stop at Sondrestrom Fjord, Greenland (the over water leg flight times 3hr 25min and 5hr 45min outbound at 540 mph – a little quicker homebound).

Come 1980 then scheduled service Braniff Boeing 747-230 (del new to Lufthansa) and Gatwick to Dallas 9hr 25min at 600mph IAS – a lot quicker homebound. While in 1989 scheduled VIASA DC-10-30 Heathrow-Frankfurt-Caracas-Lima, with the longest leg 9hr 20min at 555mph. In 1991 Manchester to Chicago by American Airlines Boeing 767-300ER 8hr 30min outbound at 540 mph and more recently Virgin A.340 Heathrow-Dubai 7hr homebound at 550mph IAS. Speeds are those reported by ‘Captain Speaking’ so some are IAS, others ground speed.

Gone on a bit, main thing I’m trying to do is contrast the earlier Britannia and Boeing 707 flights with more recent types. While I have no access to route miles calculations, the total flight times on a B.707-320 MAN-YVR with need for a fuel stop at SFJ is roughly the same as DC-10-30ER FRA-CCS flown direct.

BOAC timetables from 1960’s for VC-10/707 –
http://www.vc10.net/Data/1966_BOAC_page10.html

The original question was from UK to India in 1968 – if we refine that to say London Heathrow to Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport Mumbai, that gives a distance of approximately 4450 miles, well beyond the unfuelled range of jet airliners of the 1950s.

Other aircraft types and periods have been mentioned in these fascinating replies. In the early 1950s the DH Comet 1s – although operating the route can be discounted because that were not capable of operating that range with three stops listed.

Likewise the early Boeing jet products of the mid-to-late 1950’s can also not be really considered (Boeing figures quoted):

The 367-80 had a range of 3530 miles with reserves and cruised at 550 mph.
The first re-design – the KC-135 had a very similar cruise speed, but a range of only 3000 miles.

The second re-design – the 707-100 had a cruise speed of 571 mph and range of 3075 miles with no reserves.

It is not until the arrival of the 707-300B in 1962 that we start to see unrefueled ranges that are possible over that distance – 607 mph cruise over a range of 6160 miles.

To put that into context with today’s services – a Singapore Airlines A380 cruises at around 500 mph which is a fairly typical speed. A 100 mile-per-hour speed difference then to now is considerable but then, as Viscount says, ‘block speed’ needs to be taken into account.

I seem to remember that Tridents, with a good tailwind, could achieve slightly supersonic ground speeds. Airliners today are too slow for that. The better fuel economy of the slower speeds cuts costs.

So despite its speed a Boeing 707 would have to refuel on a long haul?

1956 – about 8 hours to fly from London (Lydd) to Wick in a DC-3….

Thanks that is a splendid overview. Back in the 70’s I went on a Coronado I couldn’t believe how quick the flight was. The contrast between 1959 and 69 is fascinating.

Yes, 1969 puts you firmly in the period of Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8, Comet 4, Convair Cv.990. Indeed 1969 witnessed the first flight of both the Boeing 747 and of Concorde. Short haul was progressively being dominated by BAC.1-11, Caravelle, Douglas DC-9 and growing numbers of Boeing 737s, replacing Viscounts, Vanguards, Electras, Britannias, DC-6, Dakotas etc. Piston engined airliners were being relegated to developing countries and freight operations.

An interesting aspect of your question, as asked, is that when compared to the Cv.990 Coronado, cruising speeds today are actually slightly slower by even the newest large jet airliners. This being due to aerodynamic design considerations with less sweep to the wing and more drag created by wider and longer fuselages despite far more powerful engines.

There are other factors that make your question interesting to consider. While direct UK to Middle East or East Coast USA flights times should be largely similar to those of a Boeing 707, flight times to Far East, Australasia, West Coast USA, Southern Africa and South America will often be considerably less – simply because Boeing 777, Airbus A.330 etc have way longer range so require fewer, or indeed no fuel stops en route. Today passengers are less stressed by overnight stops in hot climates and time-zone changes, although crews no longer have en-route stop-overs but sleep on the aircraft changing shift in-flight.

Another factor in the equation is that today airlines allow for far longer timetabling ‘block times’ than in the past – this covers for longer taxi-times, runway congestion, holding and ATC slot delays. By building-in far longer block-times into the timetabling than the actual flight times, airlines can boast how often they arrive ‘on time’ and passengers feel good when they arrive early! A local example, although short haul, is that a quiet time of day rotation, with a flight time of 30 minutes regularly arrives 25 minutes early, due to a block-time of an hour in the timetable. Back in the ‘Sixties, even with Viscounts the timetable block time was 45 or 50 minutes – but much more honest timings!

Looking back at the original question, if you had asked about how much the world has shrunk in terms of air travel times since 1959 – there would be a massive difference as the main early jet airliners, Comet 4, Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8 were only just being introduced to service. The slower and more frequently fuel-stopping Constellations, Douglas DC-7, Britannia etc were still in front-line service. The piston-engined intercontinental types were also far less mechanically reliable than the jets that replaced them quickly became, and far more subject to en-route weather delays as they flew lower.

Try here for old airline timetables:

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/complete.htm

As an addendum there’s a splendid account of a trip to the Far East by flyingboat on PPRuNe here.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/48484-rma-caledonia.html

A lot earlier than 1968, but interesting nevertheless as it involved night-stops down the route.