Alitalia looking to join AF/KLM alliance!!

Originally posted by KabirT
Avianca Colombia is the oldest….started one or two years before KLM.

Infact KLM is the oldest airline in the world to be still operating, it goes with the storie of their colour scheme, they have their c/s because they were the first airline in the world in the skies and thats why they have their aircraft painted blue!!!

SOME QUOTES FROM WEBSITES!!!

… Founded in 1919, Avianca is the world’s second-oldest airline after KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. Copyright 2003 Reuters Limited. Click for Restrictions.
www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003/07/10-avianca.htm

… http://www.klm.com. KLM Royal Dutch Airlines is the oldest airline
in the world, established in 1919. In terms of flown passenger …
www.leading-concepts.com/strategicalliances.htm

KLM is the oldest! and

Hi All!

It will be certainly interesting to see if AF and KL will make joint orders for aircraft, why not tip the balance of scales of economy in their direction. My guess would be that they both will retain a mixed fleet. Because KLM is not totally a Boeing loyalist. Think of the Airbus 310’s they used until just a decade ago and the Airbus 330-200 order to replace 767/MD-11. A mixed fleet of different aircraft types means spreading of risk of low occupancy of aircraft. They would be able to react better to market circumstances on the medium and shortterm (even if it would mean offer only 8-9 seats less on a certain roundtrip)

KLM is getting rid of it’s 737-300’s and -400’s in a slow pace. Think of the exchange with Boeing in April 2004 >>> 2 737-300’s for a -900! So maybe in the future KLM would fly more Airbusses? Also the future of the Fokker 70’s is not certain, they are evaluating alternatives. So also in the regional market they could move to the Embrear 135/145 (that make out the most of Regional’s aircraft) Let’s see!

By the way, KLM still ís world’s oldest airline operating under the same name!
According to the Compendium of International Civil Aviation.

Quote: Year 1919
“KLM Royal Dutch Airlines was founded in The Hague on 7 October by Dr. Albert Plesman, and is generally recognized as the world’s oldest airline still operating under the same name. The inaugural flight took place between Amsterdam and London on 17 May 1920, carrying two passengers and 15 kg of newspapers…”

Quote: Year 1919
“AVIANCA, formerly called SCADTA, was founded in Barranquilla, Colombia, on 5 December which makes it the oldest airline company in the Americas, operating domestic and international services…”

So, KabirT, it’s only by two months but KLM is the oldest. SCADTA wás formed two years earlier. Coincidence? It didn’t live a long life.:cool:

C U next time!

I would think that the MD-11 will be for the scrap heap. Aren’t KLM expecting A330’s and 777’s in the near future. Already more complimentary.

Although I like the AF livery, I’m sure that within a year some hybrid scheme will surface, once the general public has become used to the idea.

Still curious to see what LH comes up with? I predict a move on Austrian or SAS, already part of STAR, that is if they want to absorb like BA and AF. Although, with the fierce competition in the German domestic front, it might be sooner rather than later that they pursue their mainline competition.

I think you’re right.
I’s love SOOOOOOOOOOO much to see a MD11 with AF livery 🙂

Shall we open a pool?

He who comes closest to guessing when KLM will fly A320s will win something?

My guess is for Oktober 2005.

I’m curious about what will happen to the fleet.
AF is mainly an Airbus user (even if they operate 777 and 747’s)
since KL is a Boeing loyal customer.

The goal of such a deal is to cut operating costs. In order to achieve this goal , AF/KL will have to harmonize their fleet.
It will be a tough job …

I can see your point but I tend to disagree with it. While it could be considered brash that the Dutch government allowed the AF/KL deal, I think it had always been a major priority of the Dutch government to “offer” KLM openly to Europe.

While KLM might have been generally in quite good shape, it was accepted that KLM needed in order to survive the Europe wide consolidation, a European partner. The alliance between KLM and Northwest was profitable, however, it restricted KLM to flights between Europe and the US only and lacked the overall profitability for the airline. What KLM needed was a sufficient European partner to offer it a complex network to remain competitive.

The Netherlands is a small state, they have always been dependant on international trade, thus are quite liberal. Airlines are no different. The government has always been in favour of the liberalisation of airline ownership and foreign investment, moreover, “Open skies”. Therefore, it was believed that it was in the best general interest of KLM to come open to European ownership.

What I am saying is that although the government’s decision might seem stupid in the short term, I think they have always desired something similar to occur like the AF/KL deal. The limitations are being the present ownership and control restrictions in aviation treaties and bilateral agreements, which hinder the restructuring of the industry. Nevertheless, it possibly guarantees the future of KLM in the times of necessary consolidation and in turn suggesting that there should be no geographical restrictions on airlines.

While this is contradictory of my earlier statements, having looked into the matter I believe that the Dutch government should be commended on such a decision. Only time will tell….

Originally posted by Saab 2000
That is the trouble, but the EU is encouraging consolidation so I believe this is just the beginning. In many respects it was a brave decision by the Dutch Government to allow such a move, aviation is one of the very last form of nationalism as it gives the country and identity all over the world. Nevertheless, patriotism isn’t the way to run a business with the situation in Europe being too cosy in the past. With alliances and the formation of the EU it is just an outdated system now, okay in the short run it’s an identity crisis, however, in the long run it is the leaner more efficient European market.

agreed with you statemtn that patriotism is not the way to run a business……..but in my opinion a country shouldnt put the national carrier on the line so easily.

Originally posted by KabirT
agreed there totally. The national airline is a countrys symbol that also represent the country on its international routes. Seeing so many of them go down like this is sad. Specialy KLM, worlds second oldest airline.

That is the trouble, but the EU is encouraging consolidation so I believe this is just the beginning. In many respects it was a brave decision by the Dutch Government to allow such a move, aviation is one of the very last form of nationalism as it gives the country and identity all over the world. Nevertheless, patriotism isn’t the way to run a business with the situation in Europe being too cosy in the past. With alliances and the formation of the EU it is just an outdated system now, okay in the short run it’s an identity crisis, however, in the long run it is the leaner more efficient European market.

Originally posted by Mark L
I always thought KLM was the oldest?

Avianca Colombia is the oldest….started one or two years before KLM.

dartie
didn’t Alitalia and KLM already have an alliance back in like 1997

There was indeed an alliance. It lasted for only 2 years though. KLM had a fwe grievances, amongst others:

* KLM was promised that AZ would be privatized. This did not occur.
* There were some problems with the airport (Malpensa?) which was brand new at the time. Acces to/from the airport, luggage etc.

The break-up was quite costly too for KLM. They had to pay a hefty fine.

BTW, I was also under the impression that KLM was the oldest airline still operating.

Originally posted by KabirT
Specialy KLM, worlds second oldest airline.

I always thought KLM was the oldest?

Originally posted by Saab 2000
Well the need for a more business like approach to aviation is obviously well overdue; 9/11 was just a catalyst. In other businesses such a financial crisis would have sparked off larger businesses taking advantage of economies of scale and the weakest going under. In aviation you have a totally contrasting idea.

In Europe it is well regarded that a national carrier is a symbol of a State’s infrastructure and identity. An airline might be emblazoned with a national flag, which links the world to that particular country and capital. So from this, due to pride, we see states continuously bailing out flag carriers and political opposition givimg a country a national carrier. Again it is a case of redefining “nationality,” which many countries are uneasy to do.

But I think now though that now governments realize the need for consolidation, they are easing the path. The relaxation of ownership laws and bilateral agreements will no doubt help with greater emphasis on existing airline alliances. You would point to large alliances such as Star or Oneworld taking advantage of partners and taking stakes in them. For example, LH’s relationships with LOT, SAS and Austrian grow and they are turned into feeder services with excess capacity going straight to one major hub at FRA.

I mean, in Europe you have one country having one national airline with an over-inflated network. This doesn’t work anymore, why not have three or four major airlines (I point to the large EU players of France, Germany and the UK here) who merge with other airlines or take them over? AF/KL, BA/IB etc, are just other examples with Swiss’ entry into Onworld possibly being a backward step.

agreed there totally. The national airline is a countrys symbol that also represent the country on its international routes. Seeing so many of them go down like this is sad. Specialy KLM, worlds second oldest airline.

didn’t Alitalia and KLM already have an alliance back in like 1997, i remember seeing 2 B747’s nose to nose on a magazine announce their alliance when i was travelling from FCO – LHR!!!

Well the need for a more business like approach to aviation is obviously well overdue; 9/11 was just a catalyst. In other businesses such a financial crisis would have sparked off larger businesses taking advantage of economies of scale and the weakest going under. In aviation you have a totally contrasting idea.

In Europe it is well regarded that a national carrier is a symbol of a State’s infrastructure and identity. An airline might be emblazoned with a national flag, which links the world to that particular country and capital. So from this, due to pride, we see states continuously bailing out flag carriers and political opposition givimg a country a national carrier. Again it is a case of redefining “nationality,” which many countries are uneasy to do.

But I think now though that now governments realize the need for consolidation, they are easing the path. The relaxation of ownership laws and bilateral agreements will no doubt help with greater emphasis on existing airline alliances. You would point to large alliances such as Star or Oneworld taking advantage of partners and taking stakes in them. For example, LH’s relationships with LOT, SAS and Austrian grow and they are turned into feeder services with excess capacity going straight to one major hub at FRA.

I mean, in Europe you have one country having one national airline with an over-inflated network. This doesn’t work anymore, why not have three or four major airlines (I point to the large EU players of France, Germany and the UK here) who merge with other airlines or take them over? AF/KL, BA/IB etc, are just other examples with Swiss’ entry into Onworld possibly being a backward step.

Actually, Swiss has already been taken! No, not by LH but by BA!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3131278.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2215546.stm

BBC
BA will also back a financial bail-out for Swiss in the form of a credit facility worth 50m Swiss francs ($37m; £22.4m) which will be secured against the slots. [Swiss will give some of its LHR slots to BA].

…Signing up to Oneworld keeps loss-making Swiss independent.

[SWISS] would shed 34 aircraft – one third of its planes – in an effort to save 1.6bn Swiss francs ($1.21bn; £725m).

It said it was dropping one third of its routes to streamline the business, and plans to cease flying to Washington DC, Beijing or Rio de Janeiro…

…[and] 3,000 job cuts in the company’s 9,000 strong workforce.

Swiss racked up a net loss of 333m Swiss francs ($240m; £149m) in the first half of 2002.

Hey guys, haven’t been around for a while, but today’s news prompted my hitting the forum.

So where does this leave the rest of Europe? Would be interested to hear SAAB’s thoughts.

I’m assuming IB and BA will fast track talks at this point. Where does LH fit into the picture? Will they take over some smaller companies (thinking mostly of Austrian here), I heard recently that they are looking at taking over SWISS?? Will SAS eventually merge with BA or LH? What about your other small carriers from Ireland and Belgium? Can they compete with this mega-carrier?

Alright, bit hung over, will check in tomorrow.

Stephen

It’s a sad day; both companies might still have their individuality in retaining brands but ultimately how long will that last? KLM, the world’s oldest carrier, seemingly now on the path to oblivion. I really do question why it was in the best interest of KLM and waved through by the Dutch Government? A really quite an amazing decision in my opinion.

But anyway, a momentous day nonetheless, redefining the term “nationality” in aviation. If the first steps in consolidation were excepted by the EC then I would not be surprised to see BA and IB getting closer in the future.

KabirT
However, the Italian government must first dilute its 62 percent stake in Alitalia before negotiations can start

Why should the Italian government get rid of their full packet of shares in AZ? The Dutch government retains (for now) 14% with an option to buy 50.1% if the Dutch open-skies argreements are treatened.

France is even better, they will have 44% (of the 54% they hold now) of the shares of AF!