Allison engined Whirlwind ?

I knew I was right in 1944 when I called the then secret, and unknown to us boys, Meteor, a “jet propelled Whirlwind” as we watched them rushing about among the doodlebugs.

Hi Jerry

yes some very interesting stuff coming out of the archive pity there are’nt more loft drawings appearing.A few issues around the cockpit area and we hope to be able to cut some metal before long but we just want to be 110% before we do.We could actually start to cut metal now for some areas but we wish to be certain and not look silly cutting metal and making structure and find we have the wrong drawings.

Petter was certainly a very clever man and must rate alongside the designers of the Spitfire,Hurricane and Lancaster. He proved this by going on to design such aircraft as the Lightning and the Canberra amongst some. Have you ever notice if you take a side view of a Whirlwind and put a piece of card over the cockpit and wing area to hide it you could be forgiven for thinking you are looking at the picture of a Meteor ???. I wonder who copied what idea from who ??

Mike E

www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

On going through the Westland Archives we have found a lot of information and photographs.

To start with the first aircraft was originally engineered and fitted with Kestrels until the Peregrines arrived.

Petter then spent an awful lot of time redesigning the cowls and nacelles and one aircraft flew with this new configuration.The aircraft was sent to Rolls Royce and spent a good while with them including having the Merlin installations.
There are records and letters in existence supporting this from the archives also
documented information confirming that Rolls Royce would no longer support the peregrine and also that as they where fully committed on Merlin production to other manufacturers they did not have spare capacity to produce Merlin’s for the Whirlwind even though trials had been favorable.

The first aircraft also had an alternate design with twin tail similar in appearance to the HE162.

Another fact people have asked why the Whirlwind did not participate in the B of B there are also letters between the powers at be stating that the Whirlwind force would be held back and it would be the focus of an anti invasion strike against the feared German invasion on our beaches.

Further information is available on our web site.

Mike E

www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

Hi Mike,
Great Stuff, go to see the info is turning up at westlands, maybe someone will do a re write of the whirlwind history soon with all the new info.
cheers
Jerry

Hi
The few references I found about the merlin whirlwind over the years

NA/PRO kew

Jan 41 in a letter to Sholto Douglas
by Eric Mensforth Managing Director. Westlands.

……. We are now able, because of the solution of certain undercarriage retraction problems, to offer to install in the whirlwind twin merlin XX engines …..

Below is a link to website with a post from Walter McGowan who worked in the design department on the merlin whirlwind project.

http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/west_whirlwind.php

quote
“Later I was promoted to the design department and worked on the installation of 2 Merlin in the production version.
This was not to order yet, so the funding was Westlands.”

I e mailed the guy and I got a very speedy reply from walter who worked in the design department at westland on the merlin whirlwind.
He recalls that the whirlwind merlin nacelle shape changed very little from that of the whirlwind peregrine nacelle and that extra fuel capacity was fitted, also some changes were made to compensate for the change in CofG.

Cheers
Jerry

This is a rather incredible claim. I’d have thought that the engineering changes required for a Merlin would be considerable, amounting to a major redesign of the aircraft. That even a smaller-scale attempt was actually made and avoided previous discovery appears doubtful. That it was not only created but flown in trials, and yet has escaped record, seems extremely unlikely. That the Merlins were simply interchangeable with the Peregrines sounds complete fantasy. I think you will need very strong evidence for any of this.

Might I also suggest you visit the Rolls Royce Heritage centre at Derby (fascinating place)there you will see a Kestrel,Peregrine and Merlin next to each other. You will also note when you compare the engines that even though the Peregrine is supposed to be basically a very modified Kestrel it is in fact very Merlin in appearance and is around 7/8 the size so when compared to a single stage Merlin not a lot of difference and it can be seen that it would be very feasible.You can access a three D tour of an engine at Derby via our web site this may also assist.

Mike E
www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

On going through the Westland Archives we have found a lot of information and photographs.

To start with the first aircraft was originally engineered and fitted with Kestrels until the Peregrines arrived.

Petter then spent an awful lot of time redesigning the cowls and nacelles and one aircraft flew with this new configuration.The aircraft was sent to Rolls Royce and spent a good while with them including having the Merlin installations.
There are records and letters in existence supporting this from the archives also
documented information confirming that Rolls Royce would no longer support the peregrine and also that as they where fully committed on Merlin production to other manufacturers they did not have spare capacity to produce Merlin’s for the Whirlwind even though trials had been favorable.

The first aircraft also had an alternate design with twin tail similar in appearance to the HE162.

Another fact people have asked why the Whirlwind did not participate in the B of B there are also letters between the powers at be stating that the Whirlwind force would be held back and it would be the focus of an anti invasion strike against the feared German invasion on our beaches.

Further information is available on our web site.

Mike E

www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

There is very strong evidence that not only was a Whirlwind fitted with a merlin installation but also that it flew in trials with the same installation.Unpon realisation of how much improved it was and that Oops there woul dbe a demand for merlins the aircraft was promptly refitted with its Peregrines and returned.
Mike E

www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

This is a rather incredible claim. I’d have thought that the engineering changes required for a Merlin would be considerable, amounting to a major redesign of the aircraft. That even a smaller-scale attempt was actually made and avoided previous discovery appears doubtful. That it was not only created but flown in trials, and yet has escaped record, seems extremely unlikely. That the Merlins were simply interchangeable with the Peregrines sounds complete fantasy. I think you will need very strong evidence for any of this.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reply, I though I would post the question here for the wider ‘catchment area’
I always thought the american engine was only a paper suggestion as the only reference I found was in the PRO/NA at Kew.
Nice to see info finally emerging on the merlin whirlwind.:)
cheers
Jerry

We have as you know been very fortunate to have Westlands themselves on board with help on our project and unrestricted access to archive material that is in as much as it exists or can be found.

There is very strong evidence that not only was a Whirlwind fitted with a merlin installation but also that it flew in trials with the same installation.Unpon realisation of how much improved it was and that Oops there woul dbe a demand for merlins the aircraft was promptly refitted with its Peregrines and returned.

There is however no reference of even suggestion that the Whirlwind was fitted with anything else.And as there was little if no interest shown by the US military in the aircraft shipped to the USA I cannot see them going to the trouble of trial installations given all the other aircraft they had already in production that to be blunt at the time had better performance than the Whirlwind.

Mike E

www.whirlwindfighterproject.org

Hi,
Yeah, I have seen nothing else, apart from this that suggests it was other than a proposal.
Previously I had only seen it suggested as a peregrine replacement when the peregrine production was stopped.
Possibly a US engine as they did not want to impose on UK production, also westland had US engine experience with the P-36,
P-40 assembly/prep for service.
cheers
Jerry

A version that appears to have escaped all reference in works on Wstland Aircraft – including those by the Chief Test Pilot Penrose – and all accounts about aircraft tested at Boscombe Down.

Frankly, I have very strong doubts about it. This would not have been a five minute job and why choose a US engine not a UK one? The shortcomings of the Allison at altitude were well understood.