Alternatives to STOVL JSF?

They (the bean counter) cut corners on everything for the military, it’s a pity they don’t have to suffer the consequences of their penny pinching like the militery do maybe they’d be a little less miserly in their procurement proceedures if they did.

^ That seems to be the case for everything except the Raptor.

Although there won’t be that many of them, you can’t beat the bean counters after all.

Didn’t they cut corners on the F22’s resin, leading to one of the intakes falling off :rolleyes:

Which increasingly looks set to go the same way as introduction of new kit to the British forces. By the time they get it it is already out of date. We had a joke when I was in the army that the army of the 80’s that the MOD went on about in their advertising campaigns of the time had been deferred to the 90’s. Unfortunately it was rather more true than we wished to admit. I always maintained that the policy for re-equipment of the forces decreed that it was not cleared for service issue until it was 20 years out of date so that if any of the ‘new’ kit was captured the enemy could not learn anything useful about the technology.

Someone at BAE is bound to have a Harrier GR10/11 upgrade planned on paper as a fallback position if the F35 was delayed by several years, but as has been said above F-35 is really the only show in town.

^ That seems to be the case for everything except the Raptor.

Although there won’t be that many of them, you can’t beat the bean counters after all.

I think that is a common problem with all new aircraft. It all comes down to finances in the end. The customer, understandably, wants the most they can get for the lowest cost possible. You always come down to the customer saying we are prepared to pay X million $ per unit but it has to be able to do this, this and this. The manufacturer says to do all that wil cost Y million $, X million wil only get you this. The result is a compromise agreed by procurement agency with no real thought for whether that will actually fit the requirements of the end user be it Army, Navy or Air Force.
That much seems to hold true whether it’s Germany, UK, USA or whoever.
‘Have faith in your equipment’ says the ministry of defence when the bottom line is ‘remember it was made by the lowest bidder’.

Thanks to all for the input and lively discussion. If I can paraphrase the thread so far the general consensus seems to be that the F-35B is way too far down the path to stop at this point. And also there are no viable cost effective alternatives available for 3 of the 4 customers that want them.

Italy, Spain and the USMC (Gator Navy) can’t use anything other than a V/STOL aircraft considering their carriers/amphibs can’t accommodate anything else. The UK could change the Queen Elizabeth Class to CTOL operations and go with the F-35C, Super Hornet, Rafale or even a navalized Typhoon I would imagine.

And I too agree that a Convar Sea Dart revival would be something to behold! 😀

Actually you have a very good point there. Lead time and cost are always going to be a problem with any late stage consideration to replace something. Unfortunately that would be another problem. The VJ101 and all the other interesting machines suggested have the stealth properties of a house brick.

And the VJ101/F-109 used eight engines. 😮 Even something more conventional like the Convair 200A (which IMO should have been picked for prototyping over the Rockwell XFV-12 disaster) would cost big bucks. You could use the F135 and it’s three-bearing nozzle but you’d have to develope the lift engines from scratch, a new airframe (and you just KNOW they’d want it to be a stealth design). Much as I believe they could do better than the F-35 it’s all about $$$$. Even if they said the new design didn’t have to have stealth it’s still a new airframe and would have all the additional startup costs that go with it.

STOVL alternatives

Alternatives in the shorter term:
– Yak-41 (or 141), flew towards the end of 80’s and Yakolev were trying to get interest in a follow-on (43?), so I guess there is one that has had some development done.
– Harrier III, BAE proposal from the early JCA days, for a supersonic Harrier but whether that made it beyond models and a few sketches I don’t know.

Of course both are though 80’s/90’s era now, so may require significant modification anyway.

But how much would that cost, & how long would it take? I can’t see how it could be made at all stealthy, as well.

Actually you have a very good point there. Lead time and cost are always going to be a problem with any late stage consideration to replace something. Unfortunately that would be another problem. The VJ101 and all the other interesting machines suggested have the stealth properties of a house brick.

… The Italians have talking about a production line for years, & the American attitude has been “Fine – as long as you pay for it”. The Italians have been trying to get other potential European customers to sign up for Italian-built F-35s. So far, only the Netherlands has shown interest, AFAIK. The UK isn’t interested in a production line.
…

Is more that a talk because on Italian MoD budget there is another bilion of € up to 2047 for logistic support. The final decision is scheduled for year end.
The Italian line is to place in Cameri (see map, probably the job for the factory is already begin), Northern Italy, where is Eurofighter maintenance center.

Last information said the italian line begin with F-35B for Navy (double line with AV-8B+, Taranto/Grottaglie for some year as USMC) and Air Force (AMX of Amendola) and finish with F-35A for replace Tornado

For Italy-Netherlands agreement they buy Italian-build F-35 for engine maintenance and Norway are a potential customer.

There are no really viable alternatives without creating a successor to the Harrier from scratch.

I can’t really see it being dumped at this stage anyway, there is to much demand for it and both from US, UK, Spain and Italy.

Dumping one VTOL for another VTOL doesn’t make sense. It’s not so much about the operational need for a VTOL fighterbomber (that can be argued about), as for the money that is needed to build it, and in case of the F-35 the compromises it might force on the other versions.

Personally I think there is some merit in the idea of revisiting the the VJ-101 project. With the lower weight and smaller size of modern avionics and replacing those four engines with two modern turbofans it could quickly and easilybe brought up to modern standards. The turbofans would give more thrust and better fuel economy. Modern avionics would give capabilities far in advance of the aging Harrier. Much as I have a soft spot for the Harrier even I am willing to admit she’s getting past her sell by date.

But how much would that cost, & how long would it take? I can’t see how it could be made at all stealthy, as well.

At the rate things are proceeding, even if the F-35 is not ready before 2015 we still won’t have any carriers to put them on.
Personally I think there is some merit in the idea of revisiting the the VJ-101 project. With the lower weight and smaller size of modern avionics and replacing those four engines with two modern turbofans it could quickly and easilybe brought up to modern standards. The turbofans would give more thrust and better fuel economy. Modern avionics would give capabilities far in advance of the aging Harrier. Much as I have a soft spot for the Harrier even I am willing to admit she’s getting past her sell by date.

Maybe BAe have a production line of them sitting in the UK gathering dust somewhere from the last bunch they built in the mid to late 90’s if they didn’t build anything afterwards, but its unlikely.

There is some residual production capacity, but it’s quite a long way from new-build aircraft. The engine is still in production, & now more powerful than most of those currently fitted. Large parts of the fuselage were still being made, in small numbers, up to last summer, for life-extension of old Harriers.

Sad to say this but I have to agree with sferrin, The F-35B is going to be rather than it might be, it comes down to, as rightly pointed out, economics. Far too much has been invested with this project to even consider it being canceled now.

Opening an Italian or British line is one thing that may help reduce the costs, but the Americans aren’t going to allow that to happen any time soon (case in point- look at the A-10, they have recently offered the entire program and production line to Turkey, how long has the A-10 been around?).

1. Agree.

2. Disagree. The Italians have talking about a production line for years, & the American attitude has been “Fine – as long as you pay for it”. The Italians have been trying to get other potential European customers to sign up for Italian-built F-35s. So far, only the Netherlands has shown interest, AFAIK. The UK isn’t interested in a production line.

The USA has always been quite happy for production lines for US fighters to be set up abroad, from F-86 to F-15 & F-16. Turkey & the A-10 is a different case: nobody has ever asked to set up an A-10 production line. Nobody has ever bought the A-10, despite US efforts to sell it. If the US is now trying to sell off the old line it’s because it’s no longer in use. Better to sell it & get some money than scrap it.

Sad to say this but I have to agree with sferrin, The F-35B is going to be rather than it might be, it comes down to, as rightly pointed out, economics. Far too much has been invested with this project to even consider it being canceled now.

Opening an Italian or British line is one thing that may help reduce the costs, but the Americans aren’t going to allow that to happen any time soon (case in point- look at the A-10, they have recently offered the entire program and production line to Turkey, how long has the A-10 been around?).

Should alternatives be sort, the only things I can think of are these points:

RN will be set, since except for four aircraft they sold to India, they still have their relatively new FA.2’s, conversion of some of the older GR’s that are deemed excess to the RAF could help the situation but as pointed out, the QE carriers are able to undertake F-35C operations with a modification and cost. This will be offset with the French also purchasing the same standards for their PA.2 carrier.

The USMC will be fine as they already have Hornets so there is nothing to worry about there, they will just need mini carriers with cats or possibly the Russian style launch and recovery system.

The Italians and the Spanish do indeed have a problem but that too can be sorted out with modification to the Russian system mentioned above, though size may be the restriction.

Finally the last option I can think of would be to revive some of the older projects such as:

The VJ-101C

The VAK191B

The Mirage IIIV

Finally, and this is the more radical idea to be revived…
The Convair F2Y Sea Dart

This last option does actually make a lot more sense if you look in terms of stealth (weapons carried internally), cost (conventional water take offs and landings, unrestricted vessel lengths), easier maintenance (conventional engine over vectored engine), more supportability with upgrades (you could drop in an F404 or any other engine bringing in line with what ever your conventional fleet has).

These ideas are just what if’s and no I am not thinking of bringing them back, but just pointing out what could have been.

Italy spent over 1 bilion of € and have about 3-5%.

Now both Italian Navy and Air Force want F-35B but if Navy want (official) 20-22 B for Air Force is only rumors (someone speak of 37B + 72A). The true problem is budget’s cut but up to 2022…

At this time, with BF-1 on trial and the first 6 B on order, I don’t think so that STOVL will be delete

The short answer is “there isn’t one”. Harriers are long out of production (do the lines even exist anymore) and are woefully short on capability compared to the F-35. Frankly, I’m amazed at all the people getting their panties in a wad over things at this stage. This thing is going to be in service for 40 years. How ’bout we get it right instead of throwing in the towel in a massive panic at the first sign of everything not being a slam dunk for god’s sake? It’s almost nauseating the amount of terror a problem can invoke these days. Good thing many of these individuals weren’t working back in the fifties and sixties, they’d have all keeled over from heart-attack. (Soap box mode off. And this wasn’t directed at you Bgnewf 😉 ) If they were to throw the towel in now they’d just have to start over and the new costs would make these look like a bargain.

Maybe BAe have a production line of them sitting in the UK gathering dust somewhere from the last bunch they built in the mid to late 90’s if they didn’t build anything afterwards, but its unlikely.

If the F35B was cancelled the Royal Navy, USMC, Italian Navy and Spanish Navy would get very upset, especially considering they have invested money in the development of the aircraft. I’m fairly sure the RN has paid 5 or 10% of the development costs of the F35 program but i could be wrong (the figure of 3 billion pounds rings a bell for some reason).

Yak-141
MD/BAE proposal
Super-Harrier
Boeing Monica