America-A Success Or A Failure?

Thats what I figured you were referring to. Just wanted clarification.

Sauron,

If you don’t call Vietnam a defeat and take Nixon’s words for it that the US achieved peace with honour, i guess you can’t really say anything about France’s defeats. I know Vietnam was lost because the US governments refused to counter the Vietnamese human resources with any effect, but it was a defeat. Simple as that.

Mind you, i wasn’t defending or even apologising for communism in my above post. Not each and every post of mine with the C-word is Communist propaganda 😉

Geforce,
(sorry Sean, í’ll be going completely off topic here)

You should know the reasons for no German official settlements in the Americas better than that! Political inertia due to division in the era between Friedrich Barbarossa and the Reformation, then political division because of religious differences (which lead to the Thirty Year War), no decent access to open sea for any of the post-1648 German states, Continental expansion by Prussia rather then sea-going expansion… Only during the late 1800s when Germany was reunited did they finally start colonising, but by then only little was left for them.
Of course, plenty German settlers left for the New World, but this was never a state-organised trip but rather individual or because of religious reasons (plenty of weird Dutch and German Christian cults still survive in the US, btw).

As for coming up with Hutchinson: i beg to disagree with you on the value of his work. While it gives some interesting insights and possibly gives a nice introduction on thinking on an international level, i think the Clash of Civilisations is an overly simplistic and naieve essay. Nothing more, nothing less. Hutchinson’s way of picking a few predominant factors in a number of cultures and then using those to define ‘civilisations’ is rather shortsighted, IMHO. While he has a point in describing the Western civilisation and to a lesser extent the Arab-Islamic (but which he uses on non-Arabic nations as well which i think is only one mistake), some of his other ‘civilisations’ are not so clearly defined, yet he presents them as such because otherwise his whole theory would collapse. For example, his definition of the Eastern-European Orthodox civilisation seems to me like he has invented it himself just to be able to explain the Cold War with his theory. Yet if you check his definition of the Orthodox Civilisation (un-enlightened, long lasting feodal system, very recent development of an economical middle class) Spain, Portugal and Latin America also perfectly apply. Yet this doesn’t fit with his geographical division, so he makes up another one for Latin America… His whole theory is much more the result of certain constructions to make it fit rather than the result of observing the world.

If you compare the current situation of the West vs Islam and compare it with the West vs. Orthodoxy (in it’s communism days), you will hopefully see that the West is far less able to communicate with “Islam” as it was with “Orthodoxy”. Yet according to Hutchinson both these situations are equally fundamental as they both are civilisational clashes? Give me a break!

But where can you put Hutchinson then? Simple:

Nobody helps me when fighting my brother.
My brother helps when me fighting my dad.
My dad helps me when fighting the neighbourhood.
The neighbourhood helps me when fighting the rest of the town i live in.
With the other people from my town, we fight other towns in the area.
All our towns together are allied in our struggle against the local government.
Our local government helps us in our struggle against our national government.
The whole country helps me when bickering on our neighbouring country.
Together with out neighbouring countries with similar religion/political systems/ideology, we’re united against countries who have other standards

Ergo: Hutchinson describes nothing more than the top stair of a very, very large pyramid of power factions united in a global Balance of Power. If you think the world is purely organised according to a Balance of Power-system you might agree with Hutchinson – but that doesn’t explain why the world has ever allowed the US to become the world’s sole superpower.

Unfortunately it’s been a while since i read Hutchinson, but i’ve debated his statements for hours on end… i’m really convinced, you know?

Edit: forgot the following bit:

Sean,
“Bomber-Gap myth? Explain? Are you referring to the inflated opinion of the Soviet bomber force’s numerical strength in the 50’s and 60’s? PR was great in the Cold War.”

Well, it were Curtis leMay’s RB-45/Canberra/U-2 overflights over the Soviet Union which revealed the massive number of intercontinental bombers the Soviets had in the 1950s. Even though the CIA couldn’t find those massive numbers of Bears and Bisons.
Unfortunately for fearmongers like LeMay and others, you know very well by know how many Tu-95 and M-4 bombers were ever in service with the Soviet Union…

Oh, the sarcasm 😀

Re: America-A Success Or A Failure?

Originally posted by SOC
It’s been a while since I had a good debate, and I tend to inflame the argument and hit “Post” before I realize what exactly I was writing.

SOC admits he is a true product of the current American Government.

Regards,

kev35

Originally posted by PhantomII
I’m not sure I want relations with Europe (at least certain countries in Europe anyway) to “go back to normal”.

Agree with you here PII

“Bomber-Gap myth? Explain? Are you referring to the inflated opinion of the Soviet bomber force’s numerical strength in the 50’s and 60’s? PR was great in the Cold War.”

And the Missile Gap, don’t forget the missile gap.

In fact to purpetuate the Bomber gap they even tried to pretend the Backfire defied the laws of physics and was a longer range bomber than the B-1B. Of course although the twin engine bomber currently has a similar amount of engine power with 2 fewer engines this was just a blatant lie and an excuse for further military spending or past military spending.

When the missile gap was shown to be BS instead of saying whoops we’ll stop making them, though we have invested a lot of money to make them, instead they said lets use our new found advantage and get a first strike capability for the US.

Funny how the US perceived defencive measure turned into an aggressive one.

Think that could ever happen again? 🙂

I’m not sure I want relations with Europe (at least certain countries in Europe anyway) to “go back to normal”.

Blame it on France I always say. Without their help in the Revolutionary War, we would be a UK colony. So, just as today: Blame it on France 😀

Well, actually there were a lot of Germans moving towards the United States, before it gained independence though. The state Georgia was mostly populated by German farmers who travelled to the New World, after Westfalen (1648), when it became clear Habsburg lost its power on the continent. Germany has never been a naval power, probably because for most of the Habsburg years, it was in a union with Spain and many republics in Northern-Italy, which were the colonial powers during that time (before England and France).

It`s strange that so many Americans are forgetting about their French roots and only focus on their relations with the Britons. Louisiana (Nouvelle Orleans) was created by the French, and up to today, this state still practises the civil law system (continental) instead of the common law (Anglo-Saxon).

Sean, before 1648 Germany aka the Holy Roman Empire was united, though the emperor was in a rather weak position, since he had to give most of his power to the protestant kings.

To get back on the original thread. I don`t think the US has failed. I mean, the term failed state is something invented by an american administration referring to countries like Iraq and Iran. So I don`t think using these exact words would fit in my idea. It has accomplished many things, was the first democracy which adapted the philosophy of Montesqieu, created the idea of a federation of states which had an enormous impact on Belgium for instance. People who want to create a structure for the EU, refer to the 1787, Philadelphia, with reasons. So basically, I think the US as a country is a succes.

On the other hand, there have been tremendous mistakes, like in every normal country (with the exception of North-Korea :p). The Civil war being the biggest.

During the cold war, I think the US did what it had to do at that time. Protect its citizens and its values. And so did Western-Europe. But with the evil empire off stage now, the US as the only superpower had to find a new challenge. This will be the pax Americana. I don`t find the US an evil country, I don`t think that this new war is just about oil. It`s about different cultures. Though the United States is a very multicultural society, more so than Europe, they don`t seem the understand that not everybody wants to have the same culture as the western. I think everyone should read Huntington`s Clash of Civilizations.

Therefor I don`t back anti-Americanism, though I don`t think this has a very big impact on Western-Europe so far. Even though there will be wounds left over from the current crisis, after Bush leaves office, relations between Western-Europe and the United States will reach a normal level once again.

The biggest problem according to me is situated in Europe, or what you can still call Europe ofcourse. Not between the London-Madrid axis on one hand and the Paris-Berlin axis on the other hand, but between Western-catholic Europe and eastern-orthodox Europe … Bulgaria and Romania who have lost many sympathy here, acting as prostitutes. :rolleyes:

Because Germany was still rather convoluted and broken apart at that time in history. It hadn’t been united just yet, and as such had no real imperialistic ambitions. There were Germanic immigrants, sure, but no actual foreign colonies.

Going OT a bit

going slightly off topic but still in amerian history, why weren’t the Germans present in the colonizing of the americas? Or were they and i just didn’t know about it?

Vietnam was not a military victory. Ergo, the Vietnamese were never defeated militarily.

North Korea only ever signed an armistice; the war is technically still ongoing and the communist regime remains in power. Ergo, they were never militarily defeated.

The Bay of Pigs was infamous for the way we screwed it up.

3 countries, all communist, and no clear-cut military victories over any of them.

Maybe the Soviets should have tried to take over Europe after all?

Interesting mix of comments.

Arthur

I see you are still on your disinformation mission to defend the good old USSR and communism. 😀 Was there ever a system more loved, by more people, who never had to actually live with it.
The only system so fawed that walls had to be build to keep people in.:mad:

SOC

I think it was Cubans who were defeated at the Bay of pigs.

Viet Nam ? Hard to see that as a military loss.

Korea a military defeat? If you view starvation in the north as a better deal than life in the south, then fine. A military loss for the US? I would say it was a military defeat for NK, China and even the USSR. We should bare in mind that other nation contributed to the victory as well due to the fact that at that time the UN recognized its responsibilities (unlike now).

I think ‘the Military side of things’ had more than a little to do with winning the cold war. The obvious flaws and brutality of the USSR had a lot to do with it.

As far as Americans are concerned, they are the best neigbours one could have.

Hard to imagine how the world would be better off without them given the last 100 years of so. Most anti-American feelings IMHO stems from simple minded jealousy due to the influence of American power and the popularity of ‘so called American values’.

Regards

Sauron

If USA truly sees itself as a super power…it should be able to dethrone Saddam without war!

Nope, German. Germany could have more than likely won the FIRST World War. Then there would not have been a second, as there would be no irritated Germany after the Treaty of Versailles.

“Besides, if you’d never have found the US, there’s a good chance we’d ALL be speaking German…” – Sean, surely you mean Russian?!?

Bomber-Gap myth? Explain? Are you referring to the inflated opinion of the Soviet bomber force’s numerical strength in the 50’s and 60’s? PR was great in the Cold War.

I don’t think the US really failed, but that is with the 20/20 hindsight that communism could not survive competing globally with capitalism.

What it IMHO quite effectively did was, while appearing defiant against communism, being a fairly good sport in what effectively was peaceful coexistance with the Soviet bloc – the ‘genuine’ Communist ‘threat’ (Sean, does your employer take pride in the Bomber Gap-myth it created? Probably the best PR-scam of the second half of th 20th Century 😉 ). I seriously think that the US governments, with exception of the Reagan administration, found a rather nice balance between appeasement with the Soviets and living up to it’s self-proclaimed Commie-hate.

What the US did fail to realise was that a lot of communist uprisings had genuine and justifialble roots in the position of the people in those countries. I think it failed in realising that it could be a whole lot more productive to support and guide counter-repressionist movements into relatively low-key revolutions with some redistribution of wealth and true Western-style democracy, rather then supporting the right-wing dictators. By not doing this, it actually gave a few countries (Cuba and Vietnam) away to the Communist sphere of influence.

Ive posted quite often on this board, mostly by way of Marquees, that perfection is a state of mind , in the USAs case if they tell themselves they’re the best for long enough some one somewhere in the world will eventually believe them, most definately a state of mind .
Im sorry to our American friends on here, but I think your government is the most arrogant governing body in the world, and history tells us that arrogance, in the long run, never wins.

Dave

Originally posted by Snapper
Yes. I wish we’d never found the bloody place.

Now now, your disgruntlement with America sounds like it has nothing to do wth Communism 😀

Besides, if you’d never have found the US, there’s a good chance we’d ALL be speaking German…