America – PII's Perspective

Merry Moderation.

The tired old traditional pro and anti arguments are being trotted out now, which is a sure sign that this thread has run its course.

A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.

GA

(damn I promised myself to never get involved in any political thread here ;))

PhantomII you are right.. well almost 😉 Yes, America is a great country (perhaps not the best 😀 but still great). I fully agree with what you said about all the superb things, the opportunities, technology, etc. Come on, I had myself benefited from it more than once! Yes, it has a right to do whatever it wants to defend its interests. If it involves attacking this or that country because of this-and-that political agreements, that’s fine. If it involves shaking hands with some deadly dictators, just because they happen to be sitting on a stack of gas, that’s completely fine with me. If it involves just ignoring thousands of political prisoners somewhere, in the name of “balancing the trade deficit”, that’s bloody fine, I don’t care. Be it presenting false claims about other country as a pretext to attack it and stating “you’re with us or against”, like the famous Mr. Rumsfeld’s speech at the UN. That’s life, “these are the days of our lives”. Damn, that’s exactly what I would expect from my leaders (even if some of them happen to be retards ;)) and if they’d done otherwise I’d be the first to kick them in the nuts. I fully support the Americans like you that want to fight for all that, I’d probably do the same if I were one (especially given a chance to fly a Raptor ;))

Interestingly, all of that proves your point about Mr Blair’s quote – because it means that the country cares most about itself, its interests and its own citizens than anything else in the world. That’s indeed a reason for “in” being higher than “out”.

The one and only thing I hate about America is this bloody hypocrisy, that is trying to present all the above (once again: completely justified from a nation’s point of view) actions as “fight for the human rights”, “removing bloody regime”, “saving the world from the global terrorist threat”… etc., substitute anything you will hear on the CNN tonight.

America may have it’s problems, but it is one of the most technologically advanced countries, this world has ever seen. America will continue to advance technology in space exploration, which is important for mankinds survival.
It’s a shame that the harsh realities of this world are, that you need to be a powerful military power to survive. Human beings have always been at each others throats, nothing will change that, it’s part of human nature. So I wish America nothing but the best of luck, in the technological race to put man in space and on the moon, and then beyond. This is the only way, to raise ourselves from our primitive destructive ways.
_______________________

I really, really, really don’t believe that anyone takes this “They hate us because of our freedom”-crap seriously. That remark is testament of such an incredible ignorance on the rest of the world the US happens to have a thick finger into, it’s pathetic.

lol….nicely said…..its not like America is the only country to have freedom……

I was born and raised in one of the most pro-American country in the world- Australia- and I dislike America not for its freedom but for its arrogant attitude towards the world. I often come across sick bloodthirsty Americans boasting about their country’s ability to destroy others, and even advocating such actions over and over again. The first time I came to this forum I encountered American members who were like that.

At the personal level I can’t stand the hypocrisy, after September 11 Americans bitched about the “terrorists” that attacked their country, playing the victim and bitched so well that they drowned out the moans and cries of others who became victims of America’s super-weapons afterwards. The September 11 attacks ought to have taught Americans a lesson, but it hasn’t. Many thick-skulled Americans still believing that their country is doing great things for the world despite the path of destruction that they left behind in some parts of the world, that ignorance will come back and bite America in the ass.

You use a lot of words to say very little, Coop…

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about my country, it’s history, it’s possible future, and what it is about this nation that makes it so very unique.

Tony Blair was quoted as saying this recently when asked about why he supports America:

“A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in … And how many want out.”

An equally simple measure of a country is to look at how many want harm done to that country. While i don’t want to dismiss Tony Blair’s lapdogging towards the United States (never mind if it’s Clinton or Bush Jr in the White House), i say that the above statement has a lot more to do with a country’s ‘marketing’ than anything else. If people really knew, they’d all try to get into Monaco or Luxemburg instead.

Why am I posting this thread? I honestly don’t really know. Most of the people on this forum aren’t even American in nationality…

Emphasis mine.
Why the word ‘even’ here? Are you being dismissive of all us lowly un-Americans? Or do you just want to re-affirm that the bulk of alleged anti-Americanism is founded on that horrible attitude problem i’ve seen with quite a number of Americans i’ve met.

…and many of them aren’t very big fans of my country for various reasons, some of which are valid and some of which aren’t.

If you been thinking, which i applaude, perhaps you have overlooked these various reasons why people may form an opinion of your country. Most people know to balance their opinions on pros and cons to form some sort of judgement. Perhaps a little thought should be spent on how it happened the world seems to have grown a bit more critical of the United States of America.

I suppose this is just my way of saying that I don’t really care anymore. People are going to say what they will about America and that’s fine by me.

No it isn’t fine by you. Otherwise you wouldn’t have posted this. Otherwise you would have left this forum for a far more Americanocentric board. Despite what you are saying here, you are not that provincial and insular, Cooper. That’s one of the reasons i think you’re fun to have around here.

I’ve never been more proud to be a United States citizen than I am at this point in my life. I’m just starting out on what I hope will be a worthwhile career in the United States Air Force, and I aim to do everything I can to defend my country. Did I join solely for the reason to defend my nation? No. I joined because I’ve always wanted to fly airplanes for a living, and I figured the military would give me a good shot at doing that and I could do my part in serving my country while I’m at it. Two birds with one stone……that sort of thing.

Good for you, and a wonderful illustration of the opportunities your country has offered to you. Just don’t think that your country is unique in those opportunities, although you seem to bring that across.

As a result of this life choice I will likely be viewed as nothing more than a mindless servant of someone like George W. Bush though in reality I know better. I also know that America is not a perfect nation, and alas since we are a nation of human beings we will never be perfect.

Good you realise that. Now please allow un-Americans the freedom to reach that same conclusion, if they so wish.

Do I think that we are perhaps the greatest nation on Earth? I don’t know I suppose history will judge us thousands of years on down the road. I know that in my opinion we aren’t all that bad. In fact, I’d say we’ve done some pretty amazing things on this planet and yet we seem to be the object of more criticism and disdain than any other nation I can think of despite the fact that if history was to judge right now I’d say our wrongs are definitely overshadowed by our rights.

Blablaba. This could have been more interesting if you could actually support this conclusion, but since you don’t i’m afraid it’s just nationalist zeal speaking rather than anything else. Thousands of years down the road, i expect the US to be seen as one of the former great powers from way before the foundation of One World, just like the Roman Empire, the Soviet Union, China, 19th Century Britain, the lot. History tends to judge those states pretty neutral, with both pros and cons. Napoleon did a number of great things, and he did horrible things. Likewise for the Roman Empire, or Britain during it’s ruling-the-wave-days. The US will be admired for it’s contribution during the first two World Wars. The US might very well be loathed for totally destabilising the Middle East in the early 21st century.

For the United States it seems that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t. The rest of the world always seems to criticize us when we don’t take action and then go back and criticize us when we do. I feel that America is held to a very strange double standard by the rest of the world.

That’s because the world does not speak with one voice, and you’ll always be hearing voices of dissent whatever you do. On the other hand, a little consistency in your foreign politics might help here as well. That whole “Damned if we do, damned if we don’t” attitude reflects a victim mentality which doesn’t combine at all with the can-do attitude America is famous and, IMHO, justly proud of.

To this I must reply that I simply do not care anymore what anyone else on this entire planet thinks of America who is not an American. Love it or leave it, we are who we are, and just because the world thinks we should change to suit its needs doesn’t mean that’s going to happen, and as well it shouldn’t.

So you’re saying that the US should just go ahead and do whatever it likes, ignoring what the world thinks? Fine by me, but unless the USA turns completely isolasionist overnight, you shouldn’t complain when some terrorist flies a Boeing 787 Dreamliner into the Chicago Sears Tower somewhere in the future. Either you try be reasonable with the world, or be prepared for consequences.

This isn’t a case of “you’re with me or you’re against me”…..it’s a case of if you’re with me then great but I don’t really care, if not then great but I still don’t care.

It’s this black-and-white thinking that actually annoys a lot of people. Me included.

Keep in mind my views are just that…..my own…..other Americans would likely disagree with me, but I can’t help how I feel. If I am to be labelled a Western, right-wing, capitalist pig, then so be it. I won’t lose any sleep over it.

And you shouldn’t.

The Irans of the world will say what they will simply because America by its sheer existence, stands for the one thing they cannot tolerate….the freedom to do and say and be whatever you want whenever you want.

I really, really, really don’t believe that anyone takes this “They hate us because of our freedom”-crap seriously. That remark is testament of such an incredible ignorance on the rest of the world the US happens to have a thick finger into, it’s pathetic. If America is hated because of it’s freedom, why didn’t Osama target Iceland with a few other planes? Fleeing away in such lame excuses in an attempt to understand the un-American world is for me one of the most profound reasons i’m pretty sceptical when i start talking international politics with Americans. So many people just don’t want to understand! If you don’t, then fine – but then don’t bother the rest of the world with it!

In closing I don’t know why I went on this little rant. I will likely be flamed, tarred, and feathered and whatever else, but again, I just don’t care anymore. Anyone else’s opinion of me or my country doesn’t even register in my brain anymore. I just write them off and ignore them. I don’t have a great repuation around this forum anyways so what does it matter I ask?

Don’t pretend to be some sort of sorry victim on this forum. You’re a long-term, well-informed member with an unfortunate tendency to whine every now and then. You’re a proud citizen of the most powerful country on earth, there’s no dispute about that, and you even get to fly in it’s Air Force. There is no reason whatsoever for you to behave like a pathetic victim like you’re doing here.

Do I intend it as a thread to belittle the nations of others? Nope. I’m simply saying that I’m more proud to be an American than I have ever been before, and that I don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks.
Anyone is free to post comments or opinions or whatever they want, but it doesn’t matter to me because I truly don’t care.

To be honest, you haven’t said anything we hadn’t figured out about you yet.

But i guess that’s why i like you around 😀

By principles PII setted out, all nations and countries are unique compared to the others. Britain is one of the oddiest than can be and we are propaply the most oddiest in here. But to rank them by beeing unique…isent that same as someones are more equal than others?

I don’t see anything very unique on American nation.

Except that it was founded by people who thought the existing power structure in Europe would not give them a fair shake….and is, by in large, newer than half the buildings in the UK. The place were I live was home to a few widely scattered non-permanent Indian settlements 120 years ago. We’ve all been in pubs that are centuries older than that.:D

From that to what it is today (in terms of size, industrial capability, etc.) makes it rather unique, I’d say.
Certainly, the US, (along with Canada) it has developed more in the same time period than the South American continent and Africa.

Did by any change deleted my last post franky? Or did I just press the wrong putton??

well anyway, lets have a seccond go….

PhantomII can you really be that naive that you believe others hating you becouse US has so wide variety of terrains and climates??

Or that it a an excuse for some political motives??

America isent anyway unique or special among countyest, biggest and most powerfull perhaps, but russia (for example) has lot bigger reach and its climates kicks those of USA 6-0 (at least from my point of wiev).

But att least in here, rest-of-the-world, we keep hearing that other specialities or nice proporties are not away from anything. It isent competiotion, its a matter of taste;) 😉

I can only agree with you, Cooper. The USA is unique. And it is also true that with hard work, you can attain something.

But every country, small, large, rich, poor, is unique in its own way.

Some people here are judging other countries, while they probably never set foot in them, nor did they try to understand the culture.

For having been in the USA, and having lived with people there, I can say that here were places I liked a lot, places I liked less. The same goes for mentalities, politics, and many other things.

But that doesn’t give me the right to judge a country based on my impressions. At best does it give me a personal judgement about certain people.

And I would like to ask this to all those who are debating here. Don’t generalise. Don’t dismiss a country because of the experience you had through some enecounters, and even less throught what the media tells you.
Also, the opposite is true. Don’t think the world hates you because someone criticises a person living in your country.

my answer is – nothing.

Of course that’s your answer, but then again name another country where you have the opportunities that you would if you lived here.

You can start out with absolutely nothing and if you are willing to work hard enough, then there’s not a lot that won’t come your way as an opportunity if you look hard enough for it.

The United States is a large nation with a wide variety of peoples, locations, climates, and terrains. Just about any job on Earth that a human being has ever had is available to someone in the United States and that’s not just limited to those who were born here. Anyone who comes here (legally I might add) can work their way up and has the same opportunities as someone who is born here.

The are other nations in which many opportunities are available and that offer the same freedoms America does (Canada, England, & France come to mind), but the sheer size of the nation combined with its huge variety of climates and terrains offers so much to such a wide variety of people.

China is a much bigger country with a similar array of climates, but it doesn’t offer the simple freedoms in many cases that you would find in America.

There are many other nations that have a wide variety of ethnicities, climates, terrains, etc., but none offers that combination along with the simple freedoms that America does. That’s why I find it so unique and so wonderful.

Make no mistake it is certainly unique whether you want to admit it or not.

…and when you combine that with total lack of self-irony or skills to understand it from others…:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thats also propaply the main reason why kids like PhantomII cannot see that besides some pretty fundamental mullahs, noneone actually hates US or its citicens.

Many Americans have the same unfortunate tendency to put too much emphasis on nationality. As for the question what what it is about the American nation that makes it so very unique, my answer is – nothing. I don’t see anything very unique on American nation. And I dare to say that noone considers Americans as very unique – except Americans themselves, of course.. 😎

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about my country, it’s history, it’s possible future, and what it is about this nation that makes it so very unique.

Tony Blair was quoted as saying this recently when asked about why he supports America:

“A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in … And how many want out.”

In my opinion I don’t think truer words have ever been spoken.

Why am I posting this thread? I honestly don’t really know. Most of the people on this forum aren’t even American in nationality (which stands to reason as it is an international forum and America makes up only a small percentage of the world’s population), and many of them aren’t very big fans of my country for various reasons, some of which are valid and some of which aren’t.

I suppose this is just my way of saying that I don’t really care anymore. People are going to say what they will about America and that’s fine by me. I’ve never been more proud to be a United States citizen than I am at this point in my life. I’m just starting out on what I hope will be a worthwhile career in the United States Air Force, and I aim to do everything I can to defend my country. Did I join solely for the reason to defend my nation? No. I joined because I’ve always wanted to fly airplanes for a living, and I figured the military would give me a good shot at doing that and I could do my part in serving my country while I’m at it. Two birds with one stone……that sort of thing.

As a result of this life choice I will likely be viewed as nothing more than a mindless servant of someone like George W. Bush though in reality I know better. I also know that America is not a perfect nation, and alas since we are a nation of human beings we will never be perfect. Do I think that we are perhaps the greatest nation on Earth? I don’t know I suppose history will judge us thousands of years on down the road. I know that in my opinion we aren’t all that bad. In fact, I’d say we’ve done some pretty amazing things on this planet and yet we seem to be the object of more criticism and disdain than any other nation I can think of despite the fact that if history was to judge right now I’d say our wrongs are definitely overshadowed by our rights.

For the United States it seems that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t. The rest of the world always seems to criticize us when we don’t take action and then go back and criticize us when we do. I feel that America is held to a very strange double standard by the rest of the world.

To this I must reply that I simply do not care anymore what anyone else on this entire planet thinks of America who is not an American. Love it or leave it, we are who we are, and just because the world thinks we should change to suit its needs doesn’t mean that’s going to happen, and as well it shouldn’t. This isn’t a case of “you’re with me or you’re against me”…..it’s a case of if you’re with me then great but I don’t really care, if not then great but I still don’t care.

Keep in mind my views are just that…..my own…..other Americans would likely disagree with me, but I can’t help how I feel.

If I am to be labelled a Western, right-wing, capitalist pig, then so be it. I won’t lose any sleep over it.

The Irans of the world will say what they will simply because America by its sheer existence, stands for the one thing they cannot tolerate….the freedom to do and say and be whatever you want whenever you want.

In closing I don’t know why I went on this little rant. I will likely be flamed, tarred, and feathered and whatever else, but again, I just don’t care anymore. Anyone else’s opinion of me or my country doesn’t even register in my brain anymore. I just write them off and ignore them. I don’t have a great repuation around this forum anyways so what does it matter I ask?

The mods might even delete this thread……who knows.

Do I intend it as a thread to belittle the nations of others? Nope. I’m simply saying that I’m more proud to be an American than I have ever been before, and that I don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks.

Anyone is free to post comments or opinions or whatever they want, but it doesn’t matter to me because I truly don’t care.

Thats good, because until, as a nation you get your heads out of your ********s and see exactly how the rest of the world feel, you will be happy.
And as for quoting Blair, that just about sums it up.

mick ellis

It stems from your Thanksgiving celebration and what happened thereafter.;)
It demonstrates the character..

except Finland..

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But to PhantomII: do I got it rigth? As I understand from you outburst was that when in future someone points out some of the worlds misseryes that somehow involves your divine nation, Your usuall flaming and delibrate troll boast is there no more????

….Gee, I would propaply even miss it a bit;) :p 😀 😀 :diablo:

But otherwise that on above doesent really care me much. I know many americans, even some very patriotic and conservative ones, and even they know that despite you are biggest kid in the sand pox, you still cannot make friends by throwing sand to others eyes.

America, as the world’s sole hegemon, will always have the spot light on them. Especially since it has one of the most rampant loud mouth media out there, everyone is paying attention to you and any slip up you make, can easily be thrown back.

Like a big celebrity, critics will always exist, and so do enemies.. given the way the current global economy works, America and any other large country participating in it, will make enemies.. that simple. America isn’t no saint, but so aren’t too many other countries… except Finland.. they’re swell people 🙂 But at least America ain’t no Turkmenistan, Sudan, or even Bulgaria.