American Aggression.

It’s not because you are not European that I don’t want you to answer my posts, but because it’s YOU. A personal thing Cooper. Has nothing to do with nationalities.

I don´t mind americans oppinions, because they offer an external outlook. Too close to the british but in any case interesting. We ourselves talk about the US too often.

I’m not European so I’ll respect your request Geforce, and refrain from anymore posts in this thread.

Just voicing my input. And it wasn’t cause of you, it was cause of what you said. Had anyone else said it I would have said what I said.

Good luck with your discussion guys.

Well, “integration” is a funny word Keltic.

I still don’t know how far we should go. One of the problems is that each country must be free to decide how far to be integrated, but the position of the EU is “join in full or get lost”.

Do you remember our old PM in the early-mid 1990s, John Major? He saw that very clearly, and said Europe should become “variable geometry” with different countries having different levels of integration, according to what was acceptable to the people of each country.

By the way – Britain will NOT got the Euro. Blair is too scared even to hold the referendum!

Originally posted by mongu
YES!!

Stop supporting the EU. If that means less integration for the next 20 years, well, that is the price we must pay. You shot yourself in the foot by taking the Euro I’m afraid!

I greatly admire most of Europe and integration, if done properly, would be a wonderful thing. But there is too much to loose by doing it badly. In fact, it should be done right or not at all.

Are you begining to understand why I dislike the EU so much?

Great I am starting to see that you don´t dislike the EU that much. We agree, I don´t tell the integration has to be quick. You told it…..I´ve done properly a great thing…..You told it, you told it. So you despise the methods not the objective. As far as euro is concerned….don´t worry sometime shotting oneself in the feet can be a good thing if this is rotten. Read my lips…you´ll get the EURO. 😀

Originally posted by Snapper
“So if Germans are Germans, French are French and British are British…..I am just discovered that there are not europeans in Europe”

Correct – or don’t you wish to have an identity? Don’t you wish to be Spanish? Europe is a concept.
(Oh, and in my previosu post I got you mixed up, thought you were Belgian, not Spanish. Sorry. Will leave it in though, as it is pertinent.)

Don´t worry about the confusion. Europe is a reality not a concept. Geographically, politically and culturally. Just observed from outside the similarities are seem. I am Galician, Spanish, and European. Like the two faces of the same coin. My identity is comprised by many different realities. Our heads are big enough to accept this so called cosmopolitism. Would you find that it would really impoverishing having only Spanish identity icons in my head?.

Originally posted by keltic
OK, agree, lets do it. Any idea how to do it?

YES!!

Stop supporting the EU. If that means less integration for the next 20 years, well, that is the price we must pay. You shot yourself in the foot by taking the Euro I’m afraid!

I greatly admire most of Europe and integration, if done properly, would be a wonderful thing. But there is too much to loose by doing it badly. In fact, it should be done right or not at all.

Are you begining to understand why I dislike the EU so much?

Originally posted by Snapper
“Snapper I have to agree with you entirely”

Why, pray tell, must we become amalgamated? YOUR COUNTRY (from which my Grandmother came from) has not been in existence for a massive length of time, created by politics – like the EU incidentally. A buffer Zone between France, Holland and Germany. You have how many languages? “is the European culture so shamefull to make you just look to your belly?”

-hey I am Spanish, dear friend. I don´t find amalgamation but enrichment of common, sharing different prespectives, and having a wider prespective. Only amalgamation is produced by force. The EU does nto impose anything which hasn´t been accepted by all the countries-

What European Culture? Which European culture? IT’S A BIG PLACE. Why must Turkey and Switzerland be assimilated? Greece and Denmark? France and on and on and on. Its NOT about that. Anyone with half a brain can see that. Shall we all be the same? Same language, currency, TV, Food, same everything? Great, for a few years we can fly for 10 hours to have a holiday where things are different. Before we amalgamate that. Imperialism by no-one, suffered by all. I return the question – Is European culture so shameful you must redeem it by diluting other cultures?

-European culture is a multiple one, like in your country. Is Scotland amalgamated into the English culture?. Unfortunately, people travel, internet is quite extended, and whatever we like it or not……there´s a kind of amalgamation as you call it. Why is so bad countries to interchange experiences?. Don´t you find great a cultural melting pot?. I don´t know what you refer with Switzerland and Turkey…in fact nobody calls them…..it´s them who should to knock at the door.

“Will you be able to hide the British purity in the globalized world?”

Purity is something Hitler and the KKK believed in. That great Aryan race. Hitler was, of course, tall, blond and blue eyed. so was Goering, Himmler, Goebells…..Heydrich? He looked the part at least, but then thats a typical Jewish trick…..(insert sarcasm smiley).

-With purity I just enclose a hidden question. Why do you think the UK can´t accept aportations of other countries?

“I am affraid there are too many prejudices and probably a lack of common understanding.”

Who’s spouting prejudice? Those of us who want to preserve a long-standing national identity, culture and tradition? I want to sing ‘God Save The Queen’, I want to have a pint in a pub. I want to fly away on holiday and have croissants in a cafe – and pay for that in Francs. So that you can (unless you are a Flemish Belgian) understand clearly, I shall say it in French, a European language:

-And do you think that moaning against the EU you´ll keep the identity. Identity bases on that points?. I have to say, that I feel that tha UK is fearfull to what´s coming from other countries. I think identity should be based on values not on what you mention. I think the UK has changed dramatically, it´s that what you fearfull about. People drinking coffee at Starbucks, eating pasta instead of pudding, having sherry instead of beer, watching american stuff, having croissants, bagels, focaccias instead of sandwitches…………the channel won´t prevent influence from coming in, and it won´t prevent from what I have called a melting point. I love as you call “la differance…I try to look for it everytime you go to your country, Believe….time after time, I am seeing less and less as you call identity. We can´t stop that. Blame your own citizens, not to other countries which don´t want to impose anything.

Vive La Difference.

Well, actually I am a Flemish Belgian but it doesn’t matter. You know why I like our little Kingdom so much? Because there are 3 different languages, 3 different cultures, but still one common goal. If someone asks for my nationality, I will say Belgian, not Flemish or Walloon. I hate all this communautary crap, and 90 % of Belgians also think like this.

Anyway, Keltic’s post says it all.

And PII, can you please stay out of this discussion. Just because the name Geforce appears in it doesn’t necessairly mean that YOU have to answer it.

Keltic.

Was the survey you are talking about which resulted in a 91% vote against the war completely impartial? With research today you have to know who commissioned it and whether or not there was an ulterior motive. Are the people creating the poll trying to fit the results to the wishes of their employers? In your town there may well have been a high turn out for the protest. But how many towns and cities in Spain saw no protests at all? It’s a matter of balance.

Regards,

kev35

“So if Germans are Germans, French are French and British are British…..I am just discovered that there are not europeans in Europe”

Correct – or don’t you wish to have an identity? Don’t you wish to be Spanish? Europe is a concept. Like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Or even Yugoslavia. Oh yes, lets think people will be happy as one nation…

(Oh, and in my previosu post I got you mixed up, thought you were Belgian, not Spanish. Sorry. Will leave it in though, as it is pertinent.)

NOTE: Thought I was responding to a Belgian, not a Spaniard.

“Snapper I have to agree with you entirely”

Oooh, I wouldn’t do that…..It may go to my head. And then i’m apt to march on Whitehall, and call for the reinstatement of the monarchy.

And Northern Ireland is part of Ireland. Ireland is not part of Great Britain, so why we allow that bloody northern colony, or the Channel islands for that matter, to ponce off us I don’t know. The Falkland Islands is NOT part of Britain (shame on me). Its British owned, but quite why we bother with it I don’t really know. Perhaps its for the next crop of Immigrants to be sent too?

Our culture has been shaped by people not of our shores – Richard the Lionheart (Couer de Lion) was French, barely set foot here. St George was what, Turkish? What cultures we have had shape us is irrelevant – is America part of Britain? It is by your definition. I live in the heart of the Danelaw. Those pesky Vikings shagged my ancestors by force – so? Am I a Norwegian? Its what this country – THIS country – is at this stage that is important. Thats what I want to preserve throughout my life.

Why, pray tell, must we become amalgamated? YOUR COUNTRY (from which my Grandmother came from) has not been in existence for a massive length of time, created by politics – like the EU incidentally. A buffer Zone between France, Holland and Germany. You have how many languages? Are you a French Belgian, or a Flemish Belgian? In all that time you haven’t even got a common language and culture in a tiny little kingdom like yours! Same as us and the Scottish / Welsh. My wife was born in Brest, Brittany. She is Breton, not French. She’s married me, she’s French, not English. And she is pro-Europe. Why? Is it jealousy of the fact that we are independent, and have never had border swapping parties along the lines of Alsace? And I DON’T knock Belgium – its one bunch of people whom I really admire. One country that has a shining wartime record.

“is the European culture so shamefull to make you just look to your belly?”

What European Culture? Which European culture? IT’S A BIG PLACE. Why must Turkey and Switzerland be assimilated? Greece and Denmark? France and on and on and on. Its NOT about that. Anyone with half a brain can see that. Shall we all be the same? Same language, currency, TV, Food, same everything? Great, for a few years we can fly for 10 hours to have a holiday where things are different. Before we amalgamate that. Imperialism by no-one, suffered by all. I return the question – Is European culture so shameful you must redeem it by diluting other cultures?

“Will you be able to hide the British purity in the globalized world?”

Purity is something Hitler and the KKK believed in. That great Aryan race. Hitler was, of course, tall, blond and blue eyed. so was Goering, Himmler, Goebells…..Heydrich? He looked the part at least, but then thats a typical Jewish trick…..(insert sarcasm smiley).

“I am affraid there are too many prejudices and probably a lack of common understanding.”

Who’s spouting prejudice? Those of us who want to preserve a long-standing national identity, culture and tradition? I want to sing ‘God Save The Queen’, I want to have a pint in a pub. I want to fly away on holiday and have croissants in a cafe – and pay for that in Francs. So that you can (unless you are a Flemish Belgian) understand clearly, I shall say it in French, a European language:

Vive La Difference.

Originally posted by Snapper
“call yourself European?”

No. I am not European. I am English. (British in my passport, but I am not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish.)

“.

So if Germans are Germans, French are French and British are British…..I am just discovered that there are not europeans in Europe…Great, concept of geography:D…..and someone from London…is not English but Londoner?

Originally posted by mongu
I?

CHANGE THE EU

MAKE IT DEMOCRATIC!

MAKE IT ACCOUNTABLE!

[

OK, agree, lets do it. Any idea how to do it?

Kev surveys are pretty accurate. Only a couple of points may varry. In the case of the war, it´s was almost impossible finding someone in Spain who supported the war. Demostrations were the biggest ever…..my city of 140000 inhabitants, almost 50000 people went out, even more than in the coup attempt in the seventies, which had the records in terms of figures. What does that have to do with Europe?, Being atlantist as our president, means being euroskpectic……is Spain euroskeptic…not at all.

Originally posted by Snapper
“There is a strip of sea that divides us from Europe. You are a geographical neighbour only. That’s a fact.

Oh fine, so the Northern Irland is not a part of the UK, a strip of sea divides you. Whom did the UK inherited things?. Which empires?. I´ll tell you: the First one the Roman and Greek Empire, the real amalgamator of the Europan culture, from who we have got everything, from languages, legal system, food, art and many other things, when it was possible to walk from Rome to the Adriam Wall and from Lusitania to Constantinople. Who do you think being British comes from?, From the large plains of Missouri, from the jungles of Thailand?. Where do you think the anglo-saxon comes from? purity, not amalgamation of people, and the Normans who do you think they come from?. And whom do you think the English writers, painters and articians shape the British soul….from the Assyrian Empire….come on guys…..saying you don´t have anything with Europe it´s a bit bold. Looking to America? Fine, but whom do you think the American culture come from?……Gengis Kan?. Nobody hasn´t asked me yet the following question….is the European culture so shamefull to make you just look to your belly?. Will you be able to hide the British purity in the globalized world?. I am affraid there are too many prejudices and probably a lack of common understanding.

Alastair.

“Snapper I have to agree with you entirely , I’m Scottish but I’m also proud to be British , I don’t know anybody who wants to accept the Euro OR considers themselves European – “

Agreed, and I think those who think that Britain will ever consider itself to be an integral part of Europe to be deluding themselves. The English Channel has acted as an effective moat for nigh on a thousand years.

“I would go as far as say we have a stronger relationship with the USA than we do with mainland Europe.”

I think I’d have to agree there too, but I’m not altogether sure it’s something to be too proud of at the moment.

Regards,

kev35

Originally posted by Snapper
“Snapper, the UK IS Europe, wheter you like it or not. That’s just a fact.”

Nope Geforce, That’s not a fact. Belgium borders France is a fact.

“You feel ashamed to call yourself European?”

No. I am not European. I am English. (British in my passport, but I am not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish.)

“be a part of the great civilisations which have created the western world as it is today. “

What, Rome, Greece, Egypt, China, India and the Ottoman Empire or Islam? Or perhaps the British Empire? Or, even more importantly in this century – America? Russia?

And you can stick the Euro currency wherever you like, except in my pocket. If you want an international currency, then take the US Dollar – half the third world runs on it, as does the greatest industrial nation, and most international trade. except somehow I can’t see the French or Germans swallowing that pill.

There is a strip of sea that divides us from Europe. You are a geographical neighbour only. That’s a fact.

Snapper I have to agree with you entirely , I’m Scottish but I’m also proud to be British , I don’t know anybody who wants to accept the Euro OR considers themselves European – I would go as far as say we have a stronger relationship with the USA than we do with mainland Europe.

Wow. This is quite a heated debate. Geforce, it seems to me that some of the English members here aren’t going to swallow your little attempts at telling them what they are and what they are a part of so you should probably drop it.

And on another note, I find it rather annoying how you seem to want to drive a wedge between the Britain and the United States. You are so hell bent on making the United States look bad and you are trying to convince our English friends to believe the same things you do on the basis that since you are all in the same geographical area that countries like France and England should band closer together than England and the United States.

If I was British I wouldn’t like to be considered European either with the current state of world affairs. It is quite clear where some European nations (i.e. France, Germany, and just so make you happy Geforce, I’ll even mention little Belgium) stand in regards to foreign policy and it’s certainly not with the United States, Britain, or even Spain for that matter. I can’t even use the term ally when referring to countries such as France anymore. That’s not to say they are on the same level with nations such as Syria, but they have been quite hostile towards both the United States and Britain in all of this.

And you want to be closer aligned to a nation such as that? Or at least, with their current government?

Recently it has surfaced that French journalism is starting to criticize the government’s stance on this whole war thing. One main reason being because it’s quite obvious now that France was never interested in all around peace, they were just worried about their Iraqi oil interests.

“Snapper, the UK IS Europe, wheter you like it or not. That’s just a fact.”

Nope Geforce, That’s not a fact. Belgium borders France is a fact.

“You feel ashamed to call yourself European?”

No. I am not European. I am English. (British in my passport, but I am not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish.)

“be a part of the great civilisations which have created the western world as it is today. “

What, Rome, Greece, Egypt, China, India and the Ottoman Empire or Islam? Or perhaps the British Empire? Or, even more importantly in this century – America? Russia?

And you can stick the Euro currency wherever you like, except in my pocket. If you want an international currency, then take the US Dollar – half the third world runs on it, as does the greatest industrial nation, and most international trade. except somehow I can’t see the French or Germans swallowing that pill.

There is a strip of sea that divides us from Europe. You are a geographical neighbour only. That’s a fact.