American Bashing!

RE: Good Grief….

Personally, Arthur, nuclear weapons aren’t all that important to me. I feel we should maintain at least a small number of them though. They are horrible though and hopefully will never be used. The thing is though, you seem to put the U.S. and Iraq in the same boat when it comes to intent to use these weapons. Iraq is about 100 times more likely to use them than the United States.

Also I fear that if we did give up these weapons, people like Saddam would get even bolder than he is now. Who knows though.

Regarding putting you and Geforce in the same boat, I’m not trying to do that but I do argue with you both on similar points and you seem to agree on many more things than I agree with either of you on. I’m sorry I placed you two in the same boat though.

Regarding the Palestininians, I know that not all of them were cheering and I know how the media can be. Personally I don’t much like the media in my country, as they are heartless and only out for what gets the best ratings. They show things on television sometimes that probably shouldn’t be shown. I was just so angered after 9/11 and the fact that I support Israel more I suppose I overreacted about that and labeled them all the wrong way. As far as visiting an Islamic country, first of all it will be a long time before I ever get to do that, and even though it would do me well I’m not sure that I could do that. I’d probably be pretty nervous.

Anyway, I’m glad we’ve toned it down a few notches, and I’ll try to think through my future posts more. The root of all of my anger is probably our Belgian friend, but that’s not really important. The point is I should try to calm down.

RE: Good Grief….

Phantom, i am glad my outburst resulted in a relatively well-put and decent post from you. Thanks for that – and no, i don’t need any headache pills. Writing that post above was enough to cool my nerves, thanks for your concern 🙂

>Although the Palestinians cheering in the streets did anger
>me towards them a good bit more.

It wasn’t THE Palestinians, it were SOME Palestinians. Don’t judge a country or a people from the impression you get from the media (which always will select the most impressive footage) or individuals. In all honesty and seriousness, i’d suggest you to go to an Islamic country once. I’ve visited some, and you will definately get a whole different view on those people than the hateful perception you now have. I wasn’t a great fan of Islam and the people following that religion either, but my travels to those countries (and stories of friends who visited others) have certainly broadened my view.

>Kev, as far as American reducing our stockpile of weapons?
>What’s the point in that when we are not going to use them
>unless we are nuked ourselves.

Then why maintain so many of them? Nuclear weapons are very expensive to produce, maintain and guard. The global overkill capacity the US has and maintains costs the US taxpayer a lot of money.

>And even then, if that
>happened, you all would probably tell us not to retaliate.
>You speak of our arsenal of weapons as if we are going to
>use them to end the world.

The impact of the Schumacher-Levy comet on Jupiter changed the views on the effect of nuclear war, even on a fairly limited (let’s say China vs USA) scale. In such a scenario, the world WILL end. And what will be left won’t be worth crawling out of the bunker for.

>I don’t really know how to view
>that as anything other than ridiculous. And Saddam isn’t a
>global threat I know, but he is a regional threat by far,
>plus the fact that a large portion of the world’s oil
>supplies is well within his striking distance. If only we
>had finished the job back in 1991….

Thanks for mentioning the oil in stead of hollow rhetorics about democracy. If you, and the American government, were so specific more often you would read a lot less criticism from my part.

Also, i agree with Geforce here that you shouldn’t throw (for example) the two of us in one bucket for once and for all. From how i know him and other people at this forum, i guess i could get along with Vortex a whole lot better than with Geforce no matter what their (or our) opinions on a certain topic.

RE: Good Grief….

Geforce, my hateful comments regarding some Arabs were simply the wrong form of venting my anger after 9/11. I do not hate them, I simply don’t agree with their views. Although the Palestinians cheering in the streets did anger me towards them a good bit more. But that’s not really the relavent issue here. As far as me being stupid, I’m not going to go into detail defending myself from someone who doesn’t really know me personally, only on this forum. I realize I’m not stupid, and I’ve maintained high marks all throughout school and intend to continue doing so.

As far as Garry is concerned, you haven’t had a problem with him because you two agree on most issues. I have because he and I agree on almost nothing. It’s simply s difference of opinion. I just don’t like the way he goes about to prove his points. Of course I’m the first to admit I’m guilty of the same faults by a large degrees. Perhaps I haven’t lost my respect for him, but the way he presents his arguments and the examples he uses sometimes is just ridiculous.

Kev, as far as American reducing our stockpile of weapons? What’s the point in that when we are not going to use them unless we are nuked ourselves. And even then, if that happened, you all would probably tell us not to retaliate. You speak of our arsenal of weapons as if we are going to use them to end the world. I don’t really know how to view that as anything other than ridiculous. And Saddam isn’t a global threat I know, but he is a regional threat by far, plus the fact that a large portion of the world’s oil supplies is well within his striking distance. If only we had finished the job back in 1991….

And Geforce, as far as 50 year old history is concerned? When did I say we still wanted thanks for our part in WWII? I don’t believe I did. I was pointing out that events in WWII had little bearing on this discussion.

RE: Good Grief….

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-07-02 AT 01:21 PM (GMT)]PII,

“And how dare you compare the United States having WMD, with Iraq having the same types of weapons?!”

Just listen to yourself. I dare to speak in this way because I have that right. Many people died to give me this right, Americans included and for that I am extremely grateful. By not speaking my mind I would be doing them a grave disservice. They died to give me the right to speak as I feel and that I will continue to do whether it upsets the ‘odd’ American or not. You should be pleased that people challenge the US in the way that they do, it proves that many of us are still living in a relatively free world. Iraq is a problem with their WMD’s but thet could only do limited damage on a global scale. You, however maintain that it is right for America to have an arsenal which would destroy the world many times over? And look who you have in power there. This is a man who a couple of years ago knew nothing about foreign policy and didn’t know the names of several world leaders. And now he runs the war on terror. It is to be hoped his advisers are brighter and better informed than their president.

“They are there simply for a what-if scenario. A worse comes to worse kind of thing. They would only ever been used in the even that the survival of America comes into question from a foreign agressor. Granted, that threat is limited now more than ever.”

America must survive! What about it’s allies? Which foreign aggressor are you seeing as a threat now? New Zealand? Sri Lanka? Bali? The most powerful nation on earth is apparently terrified of SH? You have been attacked by terrorists from an external organisation once and that was a terrible thing. Terrorism has been a part of daily life in Ireland for many years but who were the terrorists biggest supporters? That’s right, your friendly, neighbourhood good ole boys, the US of A!

You again say that people see the US as bad guys. It’s not that way at all. You see youself as the saviours of the earth, the best nation ever to exist. If you are so secure of your faith in America’s place in the world, then why does a little criticism upset you so much?

I think it was Vortex who discussed the idea of a utopian world (apologies if it wasn’t). Why doesn’t the US take the first steps and lead the world by reducing it’s nuclear stocks even further?

The most ludicrous statement you have ever made is the one about your worst comes to worst scenario. Should that happen, and in my opinion it’s more likely now than ever before, America must survive. Well, if we get onto that the last person to survive will emerge from a nuclear winter and it will probably be an American. You can say you won with your dying breath and the stars and stripes can be your shroud.

By the way, just as a matter of courtesy, do you always ignore your emails? I don’t believe this to be an American trait, I think it’s just you showing your ignorance.

Regards,

kev35

About PII

Vortex, Phantom may be impulsive. It does not end there. There are two possibilities.

1. He really hates Arabs, he’s got no respect for them (like he has said in a discussion a while ago). I’m not going to search for the thread where he said he didn’t respect the Palestinians because they lived in dumps, but I hope he has the honesty to admit having said that. Ofcourse, he has appologised afterwarts, begging the people to give him another chance.

2. He IS stupid. Making the same faults over and over again, can only mean you are so sure about yourself or you are too damn stupid to understand.

I think Phantom is somewhere in between.

Some examples?

http://www.keymags.co.uk/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2…

The reason that idiots like you and everyone in the stupid EU (what a freaking joke) as well as liberals around the world criticize Israel is because Israel has the larger military.

…

I feel they should ignore outside opinion, especially that of the EU, and do what is necessary

…

Nothing about Europe is unified except for their memberships to NATO.

…

The biggest overall problem in Europe is the fact that LIBERALS, such as yourself Geforce, are everywhere.

…

support Israel whole-heartedly because it is the Israeli civilians that are dying from attack aimed at them. If an Palestinian civilian dies it is because they are either a militant or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Casualties happen in war. (post 51)

…

Geforce, I’ve lost all respect for you (51)

…

Regarding my dislike of Palestinians, I don’t think my views on them can ever be changed. I simply have no respect for them. Bash me or make rude remarks about me, but I just cannot force myself to like them.
(post 78)

…

Pakistani, I never said I was in some competition about liking Pakistani’s or not. It is rather immature of you to say that. Just in my experience, I’ve never had a good reason to like Pakistanis or Palestinians or many of the people in that area of the world. Shallow my views may be, but I cannot help that. As far as visiting those countries, the only place I’d ever hope to see them is under my wing someday. I don’t plan to make a visit to the Middle East because of the hatred of the West that perseveres in that region. (post 87)

…

Now you call my latest remark immature because i called you stupid. This thread dates from some weeks ago, the Israeli-Palestine thread. Please, let us not go in detail again, but this was in reply of some of my posts.
I just think we had to clear this up.

RE: Good Grief….

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-07-02 AT 08:16 AM (GMT)]”Geforce starting a topic about people’s opinions on the Bush administration rates on the edge of flaming to me, as he has shown several times in the past he has no like for the Bush administration. He many come back and deny that that was the reason for that particlar thread, but in my mind it came across that way.”

Ahh, a pole is the same as flaming. Good that I know this, maybe we should stop democracy, hell who cares about voting. Certainly not W. I thought that was the main idea of using a poll, in which I including all posibilities, like W is doing an excellent job. If that is flaming hell I won’t mention your dumb phrase on “European looks” on which I replied with an equally dumb phrase. If you really don’t see the differences with disliking the Bush-adm and disliking the US of A, well than we still have a long way to go. AFAIK, a leader of a country does not represent all of its people, unless you consider Bush as our spiritual father.

BTW, its not only the “Euro-folks” who are “anti-American” (mind the brackets please, you know why). As Garry said NZ is not in Europe, and Sri Lanka neither. But don’t worry I can live with it. Arthur and I are totally different, have another way of approaching these discussions, yet we found ourselves being thrown in one big basket as “anti-Americanists”. This is what really pisses people off.

“You bring up 50 year old history and say that it is relavent today.”

But you expect us to be gratefull still for what happened 60 years ago? Do you even know what you’re saying??????? I would like to see a answer here, and not some “why always the US” BS.

“Garry, with that last reply I’ve lost total respect for you (not that it matters, just throwing that in there, as I know I have no respect from anyone),”

Maybe we should open a list with all people who lost respect from P II and see who cares. Webbie, can you do that?
Garry is a fine guy, never had a problem with him.

Arthur, you know how to pronounce US in dutch????

Je naait het steeds 😀 }>

RE: Good Grief….

Garry, you really are quite biased, I had not realized this as such until now. You compare blow up something like the protest shootings as if they compare to what Saddam has done to the Kurds. You bring up 50 year old history and say that it is relavent today. I didn’t hear anyone from the Allies exactly complaining when Japan was bombed. Besides, why sacrifice more American lives taking down an enemy that won’t quit until annihilated. That’s what it took, as horrible as that may sound. And, have WMD’s been used since by the United States? No. That crap you spewed out about plutonium testing or whatever has really no bearing on this discussion. And besides that I have no idea what you are even talking about. Sounds like it it really happened it would be a little more well-known. Or is it just you that know about it because you are so special? Saddam Hussein has used WMD type weapons many times and he won’t hesitate to use them again, I guarantee you that. How many Kurds or Iraqi citizens in general does he have to kill to prove to you that something needs to be down about him. But, as I said earlier, he is going to be knocked out of office. It is only a matter of time. I’m sorry you support this man and his regime.

Vort, you are right. I am impulsive. I tend to get irritated quickly with biased unfair criticism, but I’m going to work on getting better. It will probably take me sometime. Fortunately you and Sauron are hear to get the points I’m trying to make across and in a much better manner, plus the fact that you guys have even more of your own points, which are better than mine to get across to these people.

Garry, with that last reply I’ve lost total respect for you (not that it matters, just throwing that in there, as I know I have no respect from anyone), because what you are essentially telling me (how I interpret it anyway) is that you support Saddam Hussein, feel that the United States has done things that equal the atrocities he has committed, and that you feel he is not a threat. I’m sorry you feel these ways. Perhaps, his actions in the future will change your mind. Hopefully not too many more civilians will die because of him for you to take notice.

Vort, you and Sauron might have to finish this one alone. I’m tired of trying to convince other members of Saddam’s evil intents. Apparently the United States is just as guilty as SH is. I suppose I’ll just have to go back to my “It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks anymore.” attitude.

Regards,
PII

RE: Good Grief….

Actually, i find PII’s remarks sometimes rather close to what i feel. However, i think his rather poor choosing of words (which we are all guilty of sometimes) at times would definately represant a view i think is rather different from what he wants to say. But, instead of hearing what he’s saying in general, some would pick on a few words to represent the worse. Phantom, you seems to be rather impulsive(ok, people can be such at times, afterall we’re not programs), wait and think about it before you reply. That should help, just a suggestion. I’m a naturalized American, so picking out words to the specifics IS NOT my specialty, but picking up tones IS. That’s my personal view of what most foreign born Americans are good at. That’s why i’m constantly surprised that other English speaking nationalities have totally different connotations for the same word and ways being used in the US. I personally feel that there is a revolution of thinking in the US. It wasn’t just Sept 11. Prior to that i have a firm believe that many Americans are starting to see the world and face some real facts. There are many in the world grateful for the US. There are also many in the world who hates the US for what ever reasons true or not. They may represent from the same countries. And then there are those in the middle of those two extremes. That we must realize. We must realize the reality of the threats, at the same time realize the possiblity of true world peace. We must be willing to be armed to be the most powerful to insure the safety of American and the world(and even at the expense of European cynicism, however naive they think we are, many common Americans do indeed and truthfully feel we have a need to project freedom and as the beacon of such), but at the same time we must be fair. One very good example is Israel. I don’t want the US to end up like Israel, because with the same kind of relative military superiority, Israelis still die day after day. Because i don’t feel that Israel is being fair. To have peace, we must be fair. But, to be fair doesn’t mean appeasement. To be fair in my opinion is to understand the foreign cultures and to understand what in their opinion is fair. I can speak fluently two other languages besides English, learning Spanish, and am hoping to learn all European languages and few other Asian language before i die. However, one thing i can tell you is I at times hear things where one would speak in English to Americans one thing and then turn around to speak to their friends in their language totally opposite things. I’m disgusted at that, and that is where i say Americans must realize that understanding is the true key to unlock all current problems. Because i’m relieved by others that truly speak out from their hearts in English or not. As to some Europeans criticizing the US, they have the right to say what ever they want, but i’m disgusted at time how extreme it can sometimes be. From a naturalized American point of view, i’m sure i see things slightly different from those borned here, yet appreciate how much this land represents. Maybe you don’t, that’s ok, but i sincerely am grateful.

RE: Arthur man, chill out a bit there….

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-07-02 AT 04:55 AM (GMT)]”Also Garry, comparing the the anti-Vietnam protest shootings to what Saddam has done to the Kurds is a bad idea in my opinion. “

My choice of students protesting american involvement in Vietnam was not an accident.
You are quite right that the scale is different, but can you not also see that students killed because they didn’t agree with one policy of their government is a bit outrageous.
The Kurds are not disagreeing with one Iraqi Policy they want a seperate state… ie an equivelent of an invasion in the sense that Iraqi land will be lost to a foreign power.
Any use of force to try to make that happen makes them terrorists doesn’t it?
Compared to students who simply wanted to save American lives in a war that was going nowhere.
Of course if the Kurds were communist there would be no problem and SH would be a hero.

“I’m offended that you could place American and Iraq in the same boat when it comes to these types of offenses.”

Sure lots of Kurds have died. But has the sanctions the US has imposed on countries like Iran, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea etc etc killed noone?
I guess enforced poverty is not as bad as actually killing people… you are right the US is really nice.

“Arthur again, I apologize if my remarks sound racist, but other than the people who committed 9/11 and those who support them, I do not hate anyone based on their ethnic background, religious affinities, or nationality. “

Good one mate… what you are saying here is that you hate Arabs, Muslims and Saudis. (These are the race, religion, and nationalities of those on board the planes…).
Why then does the US end up bombing Afghanistan?

“You feel that a military solution isn’t the best for Iraq, but what else is there? “

Naahhh, you’re right again… bomb the crap out of them… I’m sure they’ll appreciate it… they’ll never be a problem again.

“He certainly won’t go peacefully, and while we think of ways to deal with Saddam he is hoarding up chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons to threaten the surrounding countries with, not to mention a large portion of the world’s oil supplies.”

He had a much more powerful armed force in the 80’s and he wasn’t that great a threat then… certainly not a threat to the world that the US is painting him as now.
I am sure whoever replaces him will be a saint and a good christian and love Israel and Iran and everything will be better.

“Unless, of course you’d like to see Saddam remain in power. (Which I wouldn’t put it past you.)”

May shock you, but who I’d like to see in power means very little.
What is annoying is that who the US would like to see in power there is actually likely to happen.
This is the US’s version of democracy in action I think perhaps all Americans are like you and perhaps 11/9 wasn’t such a bad idea. 🙁
(It is just like British colonialism and will be just as popular.)
Don’t get me wrong, most commonwealth countries still respect the Queen and Britain but from a distance. No soveriegn country likes to be bullied… especially the US. I really don’t understand why the US thinks it can bully and still be loved at the same time.
You use terms like “How dare you compare the US to Iraq”.
It makes me laugh and shows your true opinion… one that we will never change… you think the US is above criticism.

“Basically guys, I just wish you’d stop the unfair criticism. “

Perhaps you should look at your definition of fair and unfair.
Fair should mean founded in fact. Unfair should mean made up, or simply intended as abuse, or misdirected.

Misdirected like blaming a Euro conspirisy when there are Non-Euros doing some of the criticising.

“And how dare you compare the United States having WMD, with Iraq having the same types of weapons?! “

Yes Kev… how dare you make that comparison!!! Just because the US is the only country in the world to have used nuclear weapons against an enemy…

“The reason Iraq is a threat isn’t because it simply has the weapons, it is because they have a leader like Saddam who is only too eager to use them against civilians. “

Hahahahahahaha… how do you use an area weapon against purely military targets?
Were Nagasaki and Hiroshima purely military targets?

Iraq killing Kurds with WMD is no different from them killing them with bullets… nobody stopped them in the 70s and 80s why stop them now? What has changed?
Why do you think any replacement for SH will be any better?
Perhaps there is an Iraqi in a bunker somewhere right now writing Mein Kampf and festering over the US’s unfair treatment of Iraq.

“Iraq is dangerous, because of “intent”. “

Yes lets kill SH for what he might do… what happens if Pretzel boy has another choking incident and presses the wrong button?
Kill him too?

“The United States doesn’t attack its own people, or anyone else, with WMD.”

Bullsh!t.
Not only did they bomb Japan twice with WMD, they also tested biological weapons in major US cities to determine how the diseases spread to work out how best to use them against enemy targets.
Or how about the terminal patients injected with plutonium?
…strange that they all died isn’t it?
Of course they might have wanted those few extra weeks or months with their families but they weren’t told what they were being injected with. They were told it was a possible cure… Plutonium was already known to be deadly to human tissue.
I guess agent orange is safe too.

RE: Good Grief….

Kev, you need to chill out a little as well. I’m not paranoid, it’s simply my opinion that my country receives more criticsm than is necessary. When did I say I was the arbiter of anything? Again, this is my personal opinion.

And how dare you compare the United States having WMD, with Iraq having the same types of weapons?! The reason Iraq is a threat isn’t because it simply has the weapons, it is because they have a leader like Saddam who is only too eager to use them against civilians. The United States doesn’t attack its own people, or anyone else, with WMD. They are there simply for a what-if scenario. A worse comes to worse kind of thing. They would only ever been used in the even that the survival of America comes into question from a foreign agressor. Granted, that threat is limited now more than ever. We don’t use them like Saddam does and will never employ them this way because as hard as it may be for some of you to believe, we are not the bad guys here. Iraq is dangerous, because of “intent”. Saddam has the intent to use these types of weapons, so we must get rid of him. It’s a step in the right direction when you get rid of someone as dangerous as Saddam. It’s like having a gun. Having a gun doesn’t make someone dangerous. It’s only when that person decided to use that gun that they become dangerous. As the saying goes, guns don’t kill people, people kill people. So do not compare Iraq to the United States in matters such as this. That is simply ludicrous.

RE: the whole shabang…

Arthur

I don’t believe I said that Europe sits on its ass in a crisis….!

As far as Americans go, the ones I have met, simply think of themeselves as American.

Regards

RE: How time flys

Sam

Actually any one who lives in Canada could tell you that it is as much a melting pot as the US. If you have ever been in Toronto or Vacouver you would see for yourself. Even Montreal has become quite diverse in the last 60 years or so. I live in Canada and have helped my wife raise four children here so I am not a teen. I have a reasonable knowledge of Canadian history.

Personaly I try to avoid hyphenating people if I can. Its my obervation that most ordinary folks do as well. The press and the special interest groups thrive on labels.

I was just trying to pull your leg a little Sam but I guess you feel any counter observation about europe are off limits.

Regards

RE: Phantom man, chill out a bit there….

PII,

“I’m referring to the Europeans on this board that I’ve had disputes with (they seem to be growing in number…..probably not good for me but oh well).

Does this tell you anything? Obviously everyone who has been in dispute with you is wrong. Is this a solely Amarican trait, never being wrong? Or does it just apply to you?

“The whole point of my argument on this thread is to try and make a point that I feel the United States is unfairly criticized and picked on more so than it should be on this particular forum, and consequently many of the people doing the criticisms are Europeans and I don’t feel they have any right to do so. Granted, faircriticism is fine”

You may believe this, but no-one has appointed you to be the arbiter of what you deem to be fair. The webmaster seems to have no problems with it. Why should you, an American, be allowed to suggest what criticism of your country is fair?

“What happend in America wasn’t the doing of the President, as it is in Iraq. The government didn’t advocate to shoot people,”

Are the National Guard agents of the state or not? A president should take responsibility for the actions of the state. Why else are world leaders called ‘Heads of State’?

“He certainly won’t go peacefully, and while we think of ways to deal with Saddam he is hoarding up chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons to threaten the surrounding countries with”

And America holds no weapons of mass destruction? I agree that it is dangerous that SH is stockpiling such weapons. But is it any more dangerous one fundamentalist fanatic wielding such power as opposed to any other? America and Russia have agreed to reduce nuclear weapons, but the stockpiles which will remain in America are still enough to destroy the world many times over. America still wields the biggest stick, it’s just a few inches shorter today.

“Basically guys, I just wish you’d stop the unfair criticism. You may claim is it just foreign policy that you don’t like, but until I see a different approach to some of your arguments, I’ll have to believe otherwise.”

Basically Phantom, I just wish you’d realise that much of this criticism is just and fair. That you could give up this paranoid fantasy that everyone is out ot ‘get’ America and provide decent responses to such criticism, but until I see a different approach in some of your responses, I’ll have to believe othewise.

Regards,

kev35

RE: American Bashing!

Actually, it was only a matter of time that the US was going to enter WWII. There were massive public outcries to go to the aid of the Europeans, especially the English, partially because many Americans felt close ties to the British and due to propaganda from the war torn continent (at the time, England controlled most of the cable lines to the US). FDR was trying his best to maintain American nuetrality and stay out of the conflict, but the public wouldn’t hear of this after the horror stories emerged about the treatment many Europeans recieved at the hands of the Germans.

True, Pearl Harbor did contribute to US involvement, but it would have happened anyway.

RE: Arthur man, chill out a bit there….

“You biggoted racist little redneck piece of ####.”

Wow, Arthur, it appears I hit a nerve or something. No reason to get so violent about it. First of all, I’m aware that Europe is a large place full of many diverse cultures and ethnic groups, as is the United States. I’m aware that not all Europeans share the same views that I so strongly disagree with. I’m referring to the Europeans on this board that I’ve had disputes with (they seem to be growing in number…..probably not good for me but oh well). I’ll admit, when I get angered, I say things I don’t mean or I say it in the wrong way and people interpret what I said wrongly. I’m only human and cannot help that. I’ll just have to be more watchful of how I say things in the future. Simply put, I’m glad that I only share my general appearance with some of the European members on this board. I cannot however share my views with them. Is that any better? (I’m sure it isn’t, but that’s the best I can do for now.)

Geforce, actually seeing as I have received an Air Force ROTC scholarship, I have to maintain good physical fitness so I don’t really eat in the manner you described. To be quite honest I’ve never been much on “sweet” junk food in any case. I am physcially fit and healthy and I plan to stay that way. I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make remarks that stereotype me as overweight because I’m American.

Arthur again, I apologize if my remarks sound racist, but other than the people who committed 9/11 and those who support them, I do not hate anyone based on their ethnic background, religious affinities, or nationality. The whole point of my argument on this thread is to try and make a point that I feel the United States is unfairly criticized and picked on more so than it should be on this particular forum, and consequently many of the people doing the criticisms are Europeans and I don’t feel they have any right to do so. Granted, fair criticism is fine, but the way some of the arguments have been presented, I feel a biased anti-American view has formed on this forum. Whether it was intended that way or not, it has come out that way from many members. Geforce starting a topic about people’s opinions on the Bush administration rates on the edge of flaming to me, as he has shown several times in the past he has no like for the Bush administration. He many come back and deny that that was the reason for that particlar thread, but in my mind it came across that way.

Also Garry, comparing the the anti-Vietnam protest shootings to what Saddam has done to the Kurds is a bad idea in my opinion. Saddam has done this since the late 1970’s as you’ve said. And what he has done is on a scale much larger than the few incidents in the United States. And it sounds like you feel that what Saddam has done to the Kurds is warranted because they don’t feel like they are Iraqis. This man has used horrible weapons against the people and killed thousands of them over a span of time that exceeds 20 years. I’m offended that you could place American and Iraq in the same boat when it comes to these types of offenses. What happend in America wasn’t the doing of the President, as it is in Iraq. The government didn’t advocate to shoot people, and our government isn’t an oppresive dictatorship like that of Iraq’s. Please don’t try and put the two in the same boat, as it is not feasible to do so.

You feel that a military solution isn’t the best for Iraq, but what else is there? I’ll agree, military solutions don’t always solve problems, but they are sometimes the only option. He certainly won’t go peacefully, and while we think of ways to deal with Saddam he is hoarding up chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons to threaten the surrounding countries with, not to mention a large portion of the world’s oil supplies. Unless, of course you’d like to see Saddam remain in power. (Which I wouldn’t put it past you.)

Oh and Arthur, I’d go take some headache medicine because it seems I’ve given you a migraine.

Basically guys, I just wish you’d stop the unfair criticism. You may claim is it just foreign policy that you don’t like, but until I see a different approach to some of your arguments, I’ll have to believe otherwise.

RE:

>I’ll close by stating again how lucky I feel to live where I
>do and with the opportunities that I have. Sorry we can’t
>all agree, but that’s life I suppose.

Its funny how all these Americans think that they are the only ones in this world who are free. I lived in the US for 7 years and I used to laugh my arse off everytime the news anchors would start talking about how free the US is and how supressed people are around the world. Believe it or not P II, I come from a free country too and I enjoy everything that you American’s enjoy.

When I was in the States and I was introduced to someone, and I told them where I am from and all that, they used to say Ohhh, Sri Lanka. And then I would ask do you know where that is, most would be shame faced and say no (even though they acted as if they knew where it was the first time) but then there were a few cowboys who said “hell, yeah I know where it is” isn’t that just below Australia?? I would keep a straight face and say ‘no, that’s Tasmania.’ And invarably the next question was always something to do with freedom, are you free? what kind of government do you have? And one older gentleman once told me that it is the fault of the news service, since they always paint america as being a free nation and the rest of the world being ‘in shackles.’

P II, I excuse you for being ignorant; I hope you will mature in years to come.

>Refer to me what you will Sam, it dosen’t bother me. I know
>I’m glad that I only share my looks with Europeans though.
>Certainly not my views.

How about sharing the same culture(for the most part) and dressing in the same clothes? However much you try be distinct for the europeans, it is futile; you folks share so many similarities with mainland europe.

Sam.

RE: How time flys

>Well you have a point about the bulk of european immigration
>into the Americas occuring from 1800, however the sense of
>being American or Canadian (as examples) had developed to a
>significant degree by then. Perhaps that is dificult for
>some folks to understand.

There is a reason for that. Firstly, Canada is not party to all the PC going on in the US, and also Canada is not the melting-pot America is. Canadians use the term French-Canadian to differentiate them from the British-Canadians (this was done in the past, and not commonly done any more) who were very loyal to their British heritage. In the future, with more and more non european immigrants coming in we may see the US example of classifying them according to their ethnicity. Sauron, I have been exposed to more cultures than you are; so please don’t be in a hurry to tell me that I don’t understand. For your info in the 1800’s being an American or Canadian had not developed to any significant degree. The only issue of resentment was the fact that the new immigrants wanted self-rule.

>I do not recall ever hearing the term European-Canadian used
>in common speech in Canada (nor by Americans that I am
>aware) but I suppose now that Europeans no longer see
>themselves as distinct nationalities or members of an ethnic
>group, it is the more politically correct term for us to
>use. J

See above post.

>Just a minor point, but I didn’t say that Europe was the
>centre of the world’s attention, only that it wants to
>be.:-)

You have a lot more to learn. By the way how old are you? I won’t be surprised if you are a teenager, going by the examples of your replies. ‘The older you are, the wiser you get’ is a good rule of thumb.

If you think it is Europe and not America that wants to be centre of the world’s attention, I feel sorry for you. Travel a little more and read a few more books. How about you folks reading Spider’s Web by Alan Friedman (he is an American by the way) and learning something new?

Sam.

RE: the whole shabang…

Phantom and Sauron;
Thinking Europe just sits on it’s ass and never intervenes in any crisis situation is utter bollocks. As said over and over again, European troops are/have been in plenty of international operations. Including ones the Americans didn’t participate in over the last 10 years: Sierra Leone, Eritrea, Cambodia, Cyprus, Sinai, Rwanda… And these are only the ones with a Dutch contingent. The list including other EU countries is a lot longer, yet somehow you always seem to ignore it. I have absolutely no problem with anyone critisizing European countries, but make sure you get your facts straight. That’s what you expect others to do when critisizing the US, so be a good sport and offer us the same courtesy. Unless you think you can have a unilateral debate of course }>

Phantom:
I’ll never agree with you Euro people and you all will never agree with me. Let’s leave it at that.
I hate getting impolite in what i consider to be a very entertaining and interesting discussion, but the arrogance and ignorance you display here is of a saddening, if not pathetic level. When I critisize the US administration, i am not critisizing the citizens of the US. Yet somehow you feel it necessary to respond by branding all European citizens as unable to ever agree with you? Fine. In that case, i hope you don’t consider yourself speaking for the whole USA as that would mean i find the whole country pathetically arrogant and ignorant. But i hope you will take the credit all by yourself.

I don’t think all of them are wrong. Europeans here do criticize the U.S. more than they ought to.
Here you go again. It’s not Europeans, it’s people like Geforce and me. If you can’t understand the difference between an individual with an opinion and a people with one opinion, i think you would make a perfect communist. The confusion between the individual and the collective is exactly what communism is all about.

I suppose it doesn’t really matter what people 3,000 miles away think {about Bush – A}, but nonetheless it is irritating.
It wouldn’t matter what people thought of Bush if his administration’s actions didn’t deal with them. But since the decisions taken in the Oval Office do deal with the world beyond America’s borders, i think it does matter. In all seriousness, if the US wants both to be at the forefront of democracy AND maintain such an important international position, i think non-Americans should have some saying in the elections of an American president (fun theory, huh? 🙂 )

Sauron:
Amazing or not, North Americans, while quite aware of their origins, certainly do not consider themselves Euro-American, at least not in my experience. p
Although i’ve never been to the US and can’t say anything really meaningful, my experiences (including plenty of talks with Americans i had) tell me otherwise. The Boston-Ireland link is very obvious (no, i won’t start about IRA-funding here), as i do think ties between Italian-Americans and Italy still are.

From my prospective, many Europeans still feel the need to be the centre of the world’s attention again and that is why they appear to resent the US at times.
I don’t want to be the centre of the world’s attention. The only country i can think of longing for that position is the US. All i want for my country, and every other country in the world is that their voice is heard and taken seriously.

Phantom again
{on Saddam} Firstly, he is an evil man right NOW and you all know it.
Saddam was evil in the 1980 and earlier just as well, his treatment of the Kurds being very cruel in the late 1970s too for example. But he didn’t intervene with Western interests back then.
To come back to some people’s defense of the US by bringing up American actions in the past (most notably WW1 and WW2) – just like the US was truelly great back then, my comments on the actions of the US government deal with the CURRENT administration. Just to say it once again.

I’ll close by stating again how lucky I feel to live where I do and with the opportunities that I have.
That’s nice. But don’t think being happy about your country is something exclusive for Americans. It’s not.

I know I’m glad that I only share my looks with Europeans though. Certainly not my views.
You biggoted racist little redneck piece of ####. That’s not the general European opinion, but mine. Tattoo yourself purple if you want to distinct yourself from your ancestors. You can strike out against individuals as much as you’d like, but not against whole peoples. Unless you’re a KKK member of course.

Phantom, i am really disgusted by the way you debate here. In stead of coming with arguments, you start taking opinions of certain individuals here at this forum to be representative of all of Europe. And in stead of countering my (what i consider to be well-founded) opinion with a well-founded opinion from your side like Vortex and Sauron do, you act like the poor defenceless US of A is being criticised for no reason whatsoever by the whole evil population of that poor, underdeveloped part of the world called Europe. Think again. THe US is very active on a global scale, and is therefore of great influence to other countries. To expect the other 190-some countries of the world to just sit down and swallow it all isn’t really realistic.

Again, i am critical to a part of American foreign policy, and the way it is put. I have no grudge against the country or it’s people. If that opinion i have is cause for one of those Americans to start an unbased rant against millions of people he doesn’t know, it is ONE American i don’t like.

Phantom, you should be very, very happy for your country that we don’t think alike!

RE:

“again, back to the problem of certain type of people telling others what to do because it affects them the least, of course you’re against bombing at 20+kft, because NZ will never bomb at that altitude…because they can’t”

That’s just stating the obvious. I’m not a New Zealander but the people of that country have done more than their fair share of fighting and dying for a just cause.

“Hey you guys will provide ground soldiers, why don’t we use them first without any airstrikes next time. Surely you won’t object?”

I seem to remember that ground troops from New Zealand found themselves the target of a US airstrike once. So I’m sure they would be much happier having only an enemy to worry about rather than being killed by their ‘technologically superior’ allies as well.

Regards,

kev35

RE:

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-07-02 AT 07:22 AM (GMT)]The fact that we call as Euro’s is to make it simple for you Americans. If a foreigner asks me where i come from i’ll say Belgium and not Europe (unless he’s so stupid he doesn’t know where Belgium is). But I’m pro-European so I like the term Euros 😀

“Criticism is a good thing, if you utilize it properly. I don’t think many of you (mostly Geforce) have done so.”

Since when am I criticising the US, and not bashing anymore ?!

A return to the glory days of the early 1900’s. Perhaps this is illustrated by the circle of stars which adorns the EU flag.

Actually have you seen some of the first Stars and Stripes? Also with a circle of stars. There’s nothing wrong with the European flag, it means unity (circle) and perfection (12 stars). LOL. Maybe we should add a 13th star to it: the US :}