Americans start shooting on journalists

I’m not suprised Apocalypse Now used parts of Micheal Herr’s experiences. Great movie.

The movie’s storyline itself was based directly on a book by Joseph Conrad called Heart of Darkness.

Good conspiracy theory Zippo.

As for Al-Jazeera: We have seen in the last few days what a great service it has provided to it’s dedicated viewers. Note: the shock and confusion of those viewers when they saw the symbolic act of that statue falling down. As if Baghdad fell by magic and there was no hard fighting anywhere in the country. Those same viewers from some local Arab countries will be even more shocked when they find out a lot of Iraqis don’t like some of their Arab neighbors for their unquestioned sympathy to Sadaam. And those same dedicated Al-Jazeera viewers may come to realize that for a “news” media outlet, it’s total coverage of this war leave something to be desired. Some of those viewers may consider not to believe one word from Al-Jazeera in the future.

Dispatches. Take a look at Apocalypse Now after reading it – Herr was involved with it, and many incidents from the book crop up…The Grunt with the M79 springs to mind. Dennis Hoppers character was based on Page (Tim Page is alive and well, living near Orpington, releases a book now and again. Lost half his brain.) Whether or not Dispatches is the best, well, there are many others that contend. Chickenhawk is one of them. Another one of interest is Page after Page – Tim Page’s own version of events (with before and after too).

Tempest.

“Good question about the uppers and downers Kev, I’m glad you’ve read Dispatches, its the best description of real war I’ve ever come across.”

I would have thought it was a pre-requisite for anyone with an interest in Vietnam. A cracking book, one of my favourites.

Regards,

kev35

Good question about the uppers and downers Kev, I’m glad you’ve read Dispatches, its the best description of real war I’ve ever come across.

I don’t know whether the guys on M1 were hopped up or hitting a downer, its quite possible…I got hopped up once or twice and felt paranoid for three days afterwards, just as well no one tried to kill me at the time, I could have committed unspeakable acts, but that’s just me.

I don’t think a US tank commander would have knowingly blasted journalists. The difference between journalists and soldiers is that soldiers are supposed to be shot at, and they’re supposed to shoot back as well.

Sauron.

“Kevin

You can’t have it both ways.”

No, it has to be America’s way doesn’t it?

“The fact is none of us know the truth of the matter but its obvious you are determined to blame the US for any and all unfortunate events.”

Possibly so, and to the same extent that you are prepared to exonerate the US of blame for any and all unfortunate events.

Regards

kev35

Kevin

You can’t have it both ways. In one breath you are saying that the reporters are better qualified that the US troops to determine what was going on there and in the next you are saying that their training should rule out any error.

The fact is none of us know the truth of the matter but its obvious you are determined to blame the US for any and all unfortunate events.

Regards

Sauron

Sauron.

“Yes, lets just blame the guys that are actually taking the fire and fighting the war.”

Yes, let’s do that. On to your second point.

“After all the journalists are all qualified military ‘experts’ and far better judges at determining the sounds and sources of various gunfire in the middle of a battle in a large city were sounds are reverberating and echoing off of multiple walls and surfaces.”

The journalists are no more expert than the military. Remember that for many of those Americans fighting in Baghdad it is their first combat experience. One hell of a learning curve. Some of the journalists in that hotel have been under fire a lot more than some of those doing the fighting.

“Certainly there was no likelyhood that Iraqi troops, paramilitaries, secret police or press minders were targeting the troops. They were all just standing around blowing kisses at the US forces at the time.”

It is just as likely that those you describe were targeting US troops as it is unlikely that a well-trained, well-educated well-equipped American pilot should mistake a convoy of jeeps containing US special forces for a T-72 tank.

“Certainly they would never infiltrate a hotel for use as a firing position in order to encourage return fire from the US forces.”

Of course not, just as America would never use the pretext of ridding a country of it’s weapons of mass destruction to engineer a full scale invasion leading to regime change.

Regards

kev35

Tempest.

“Soldiers are humans, not robots.

A good book to read in this respect is Michael Herr’s Disptaches. It gives a very real and honest perspective of war.”

And gave rise to the passage about LRRP’s taking medication in order to perform their duties. Something about taking uppers from one pocket and downers from another…”One pill to cut the trail and another to send you down it.” Then as now? The use of unprescribed and unsupervised self-medication of substances which are in fact prescription only medicines to enable soldiers (airmen) to function better in battle? So is your next justification for the tank crew likely to be ‘well, they were a bit high/strung out’?

The American instinct to ‘shoot first and ask questions afterwards’ does little credit to them when their victims are often the only people willing to join them in their military endeavours.

Regards,

kev35

Yes, lets just blame the guys that are actually taking the fire and fighting the war. After all the journalists are all qualified military ‘experts’ and far better judges at determining the sounds and sources of various gunfire in the middle of a battle in a large city were sounds are reverberating and echoing off of multiple walls and surfaces.

We know that the press are experts because of the astute and inteligent questions they ask at CENTCOM breifings and their detailed knowledge of the weapons systems being used on both sides.

Certainly there was no likelyhood that Iraqi troops, paramilitaries, secret police or press minders were targeting the troops. They were all just standing around blowing kisses at the US forces at the time. Certainly they would never infiltrate a hotel for use as a firing position in order to encourage return fire from the US forces.

Regards

Sauron

Keltic, there were very few US journalists left in Baghdad on Tuesday, most left before the fighting started to avoid casualties – as someone has already pointed out.

The journalists on the Palestine hotel roof had a limited field of vision, I think, about 120 degrees toward the river, so they would not be able claim with absolute certainty, that there was not fire coming from their position.

If anyone here has ever been shot at, you’ll know it’s usually near impossible to tell where the fire is coming from because if someone’s trying to kill you, they’ll do it from a covered position for their own safety, unlike the movies. It’s a frightening position to be in, being shot at. In combat people who are shot at tend to fire back in all directions as a means of self preservation. War can be an indiscriminate and dirty business in urban areas.

There are situations in war where it is impossible for anybody to remain calm and logical, like when someone you can’t see is trying to kill you. Soldiers are humans, not robots.

A good book to read in this respect is Michael Herr’s Disptaches. It gives a very real and honest perspective of war. Michael Herr was a journalist who covered the Vietnam war and in one incident he ended up manning a machine gun post because the US soldiers he was with had been killed. Herr spent the whole night shooting at the North Vietnamese because his own life was threatened.

“There are no rules in war”
– Sun Tzu

Sauron;

Of course not proved, but there are too many evidences against the tank driver. More than 100 journalists who where taking pictures, many of them from the US media, declared that there weren´t shoots. But just image the situation. A hotel which wasn´t a militar target, and a tank looking ahead to the battle, so the Hotel was out of his sight……if there weren´t shoots (I suppose he was concentrated on the fire ahead), why he decided to turn round to check if at 500 a camara might look like a granade propeller?. In a silent situation would make the tank driver to heard a bang, but under fire…..Too suspicious for me. Besides, too many contradictary versions coming from the allied press conferences. Changing minute by minute. In any case, this won´t be investigated, our submiss goverment won´t ask for responsabilities to the allied force.

“Interesting theory Ink. I didn’t know you were there. Why don’t you inform us more on what fire was being taken from which location.”

Oh come on elp, I think I made it perfectly clear that my comments were based on reports from journalists who were there at the time. I’ve been stuck at my computer over the last couple of days with Radio 5 Live blurring in the background and I’ve heard several journos and correspondents from different news agencies say that they neither heard nor saw any fire eminating from the Palestine or from the area surrounding it. I don’t know whose information you trust more, the US Army or these journos but I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you whose I trust more…

So your saying then we can not blame the Air Force or the Navy pilot for bombing the convoy in Norther Iraq?? The convoy which was made up of Jeeps, requested air support to have a tank or tanks removed from up the road. I dont care if the pilot was tired/stressed or wahtever there is no way you can mistake a tank for a jeep.

Yes some of the FF incidents have been geninue mistakes, but there seems to be a large amount of them that are stupidity on the americans side.

I think it is good the UK forces are still in SE Iraq where they are from the US c0ckups

Nikumba

Originally posted by mongu
One of the testing regimes that was in place, was to test coolness and ability to think and act dispassionately under stress and in dangerous situations.

If “stress” or “under fire” were an acceptable excuse, nobody would bother with standing orders or rules of engagement because the troops would just say” uh, yeah, sorry man, i was, like, under pressure you know”

Is this as an accountant if so I can accord with that, Stress Under fire, ability to think straight and act dispassionately under stress are all part of the job, especially on a Friday night in our local Wine Bar.

Pink Gin anyone?

Interesting theory Ink. I didn’t know you were there. Why don’t you inform us more on what fire was being taken from which location.

Originally posted by Tempest
I don’t clutch straws INK. They may well have known that the Palestine was full of journalists.

But when troops are under fire they shoot at anything they think is shooting at them, call it adrenaline, call the battle fatigue, call it the moment. You don’t stop to think, oh there might be journalists there….they’ve even shot at their own people as you know.

Seen it more than once. I’d probably do the same in their position.

Not acceptable. People who can’t think rationally under fire have no business soldiering. I applied for officer training once, before I was offered much more money to train as an accountant (!) One of the testing regimes that was in place, was to test coolness and ability to think and act dispassionately under stress and in dangerous situations.

If “stress” or “under fire” were an acceptable excuse, nobody would bother with standing orders or rules of engagement because the troops would just say” uh, yeah, sorry man, i was, like, under pressure you know”

But when troops are under fire they shoot at anything they think is shooting at them, call it adrenaline, call the battle fatigue, call it the moment. You don’t stop to think, oh there might be journalists there….they’ve even shot at their own people as you know.

Yes but thats what distinguishes ‘cowboys’ from the British army!!!

Every guy on the street and his brother knew that the Palestine hotel was home to journalists. Im sure that the M1 tank commander was well aware of that fact as well. The question being asked here is that since the nature of the Palestine Hotels residents was common knowledge why did they not execute an alternative course of action, given the circumstances?

After all sniper fire is hardly going to dent the armour on a M1, now is it!

Originally posted by PhantomII

I recently saw footage of a large statue of Saddam Hussein being toppled and when it fell there was a huge cheer from the crowd. Then, tons of Iraqi’s jumped on top of it and cheered even louder. Gee, I guess the United States really is evil. Making these oppressed people happy again. Boy, aren’t we just awful?

Well, i guess congratulations are in place. Although the fighting is not over yet, the fighting has been far less destructive and costly on behalf of the civilian population than i feared.

And the gesture in which that US Marine used the American flag to wipe the pigeon sh!t from Saddam’s statue just before that statue was dragged down was exactly the kind of ‘victoire modeste’ i did not expect.

Ink, you don’t know anymore than the rest of us. You seem so certain that nothing was fired as U.S. troops yet just like the rest of us, you weren’t there. Anything to find the U.S. at fault excites you and Geforce I’m sure, but why not let them have time to find out what exactly happened before you make judgements. You weren’t there so you have no right to claim what happened. Just because certain people said nothing was fired from the building doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

This topic is rather pointless. Tons of journalists left the country because they knew that something like this was bound to happen. It is war. You can’t prevent things like from happening. And if you were in a situation where you were fired upon you would fire back, as would I and anyone else who desires to protect themselves. It’s just stupid to say otherwise.

The journalists were killed and that is unfortunate. My prayers go out to their families, but they don’t deserve anymore attention than do the troops or the various Iraqi’s that have been killed.

The only reason this incident seems to be such a big deal is because people that want the U.S. to look bad are harping on it.

It’s war. Get over it and move on. The U.S. Army has done nothing wrong.

I recently saw footage of a large statue of Saddam Hussein being toppled and when it fell there was a huge cheer from the crowd. Then, tons of Iraqi’s jumped on top of it and cheered even louder. Gee, I guess the United States really is evil. Making these oppressed people happy again. Boy, aren’t we just awful?

Wake up and smell the coffee people. The Iraqi people (most of them) are glad the coalition is there in my personal opinion.