Andrew Woodhouse not guilty

Office of National Statistics so they will have analysed all the information available from the police and CPS, presumably.

Having said all that, to blame “liberalism” on rising criminality seems at odds with the facts that crime levels are low and still falling – not only here but in may other countries as well. Perhaps “liberalism” is working.

Are these politically recorded numbers or actual figures.I am for one very dubious about “official ” figures after all lets look at the recent cover ups in the NHS waiting lists,the massaged unemployment figures- cynical me.

I don’t think ayone is saying that you cannot defend your property but some on here want to inflict all sorts of rather worrying violence on others. (“I also have a couple of guns ” )
I suspect a large part is keyboard bravado and heroism and as stated before no-one knows how anyone of us would react in any given circumstance. The best plan may be wait and call the police it may be confrontation if life was threatened – but you never know what thieves might be carrying.

Having said all that, to blame “liberalism” on rising criminality seems at odds with the facts that crime levels are low and still falling – not only here but in may other countries as well. Perhaps “liberalism” is working.

There is much made of people taking the law into their own hands, I don’t think anyone has advocated that, with Mr Woodhouse, when the situation was stabilised he then called the police, even under those circumstances he did not exact his own retribution after things calmed a little, if he had resorted totally to self administering justice that pair would probably have been found in a ditch somewhere.

Unless we are confronted with that situation few of us know how we woulkd react, the only thing I am certain of is that the health and well being of an intruder, potential assailant, would not be foremost in my mind.

Re 71

I stand in imminent danger of agreeing with you. Your 3rd para. is about instant assessment and instant re-action. It is the ‘instant’ bit that matters.

None of us knows what we would do on the spur of the moment but we think and believe what we would do.

In my experience it is never a bad idea to have thought through a plan of actions for basic situations so when/if the time comes you can respond automatically and effectively.

I already know that if the pikeys steal another car off my property and I see it happening I’ll simply phone the police for my crime number and let them get on with it.

A household intrusion will be met with some very positive response. A baseball bat happens to be stored in a convenient location. Going in hard and fast minimises risk and maximises the likelihood of a happy outcome. Certainly legs and possibly arms will be broken.

Anything else places my wife (and I) at greater risk. There is no guarantee that they will simply steal property.

Moggy

Cloud 9

There must be sufficent numbers of people who think like you to enable career criminals to make a good living.

You seem to be a decent person but, weak and naive and lacking an understanding of human behaviour.

For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps I should explain what I would have done if I had caught/seen the criminals in the act…I probably would have given chase for as long as I could (I’m rather unfit and not that fast tbh!), and if I had caught up with them I would have grabbed hold of them and tackled them to the floor. I would have restrained them so that they could not cause me any injury, which would probably have meant sitting on them. I certainly wouldn’t have punched/kicked them or attacked them with a weapon because I just don’t see what that would achieve? I would have called the police and got them arrested.
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I do martial arts and the first thing you are told is DO NOT resist unless you have absolutely no other way out.You talk,you give them what they want,material things can be replaced,limbs ,life can’t.
Once they become a threat THEN you can defend yourself but only to a level of stopping them from hurting you, anything more than that and YOU become the aggressor and can be prosecuted.
You say you are unfit so lets be honest you are likely to get a good kicking if you do get involved and can actually catch them up [ now assuming they have left your property and are running away you are on VERY dodgy ground legally].
The odds of an average person being able to restrain a hard,fit desperate person who has gone into an animal rage trying to get away is not good.If the burglar is drunk or out of his skull on drugs then you may have a chance — maybe.
IF i was confronted on my property i would consider the situation carefully but i certainly would go out and cause as much harm to them as possible IF there was a conflict that was unavoidable.
The victim should always be given the benefit of the doubt if confronted on their property in my opinion.

And where is a thief on the dole going to get £750? Ohhh wait, his next victim…

No, of course not. It would depend on their circumstances. If they were on the dole and/or had no concievable way of paying the financial fine then a lengthier community service would be necessary (rather than hours…make it weeks/months/years!), and/or there should be a payment system in place so that once the criminal had completed the re-habilitation course and was working and earning, then money would be taken from their wages over a period of time until the fine had been paid off.

Cloud 9 – I had already answered your earlier question in #59.

Given chase? In your house? Mid-robbery? And the burgler standing his ground? Possibly armed? Threatening your wife? Etc etc…..None of us knows what we would do on the spur of the moment but we think and believe what we would do.

I have to agree with another comment that your conciliatory attitude just plays into the criminal’s hand.

I would expect a hefty fine (£750+),

And where is a thief on the dole going to get £750? Ohhh wait, his next victim… Personally I would have the law as in the USA, enter anyone’s property without their permission and you know it is open season on you, that is a deterrent, that or an automatic 5 year minimum jail sentence, the rest is Molly coddling them, 3 repeat offences and life imprisonment, there is a reason that no one steals in some Arab countries, and that is it’s difficult to shop lift without a hand.

Ok you’re right it doesn’t add much to the debate directly…but the point I was getting across was the fact that I didn’t immediatley charge in like a bull in a chinashop, arm myself with a weapon/s and be willing to use it if someone was still in the property. There will be those on here that will probably think the police didn’t do a good enough job, or that I shouldn’t have had to call the locksmith out in order to get the additional security measures put in place as they no doubt would have simply attacked the criminal if they had come across them and claimed self-defence, but I just don’t see how this would make a difference! As I said above, no-one was hurt and the house is much safer than it was. I’ve since moved, but not as a result of the burglary, just in case you were wondering!

For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps I should explain what I would have done if I had caught/seen the criminals in the act…I probably would have given chase for as long as I could (I’m rather unfit and not that fast tbh!), and if I had caught up with them I would have grabbed hold of them and tackled them to the floor. I would have restrained them so that they could not cause me any injury, which would probably have meant sitting on them. I certainly wouldn’t have punched/kicked them or attacked them with a weapon because I just don’t see what that would achieve? I would have called the police and got them arrested.

If it went to court, I would expect the criminal to have to explain themselves and their actions so as to understand exactly why they did it. I wouldn’t allow them to hide behind a lousy excuse or have a defence lawyer do it for them (of course they’d be entitled to have one present though!), they would be expected to speak for themselves. Now, if it was a first-time offender, I would expect a hefty fine (£750+) along with costs of getting the damage at the house repaired and the replacing of the items that were stolen so lets say £1500. I would then expect some sort of community service and a re-habilitation course to be issued. If at any point these were ignored or disregarded, then a stint in jail would be necessary.

If it were a repeat offender, it would obviously depend on their past history as to whether I would expect them to be sent to jail or not.

I certainly wouldn’t just watch them walk away from court with a slapped wrist as has been suggested above.

Another thing I would do, although this is probably a completley seperate debate in itself, I would reform the prison service so that criminals do not get to have such a good lifestyle when they are in jail. No TV’s, no internet, just basic facilities. Plus, I wouldn’t have early release times for good behaviour…the sentance set by the court would be the amount of time that is spent in jail.

I am sure a few of us could tell a similar story but it doesn’t add much to this debate because the house was unoccupied when burgled.

Simple. Because until both the law and the attitude are changed…

Please explain to me what you would change about the law in this respect?

I hope to god you never get burgled cloud 9.I hope your house is so full of surveillance and anti theft devices that will stop a ram raider because with your outlook not only will the criminal take you and your family for everything you will stand by and watch them walk away from court with a slapped wrist.

Oddly enough trumper I have been burgled…and it happened within the last two years! Here’s my account of what happened:

I came home from work one-day and found the weelie-bin on its side, propped up against the kitchen window and the dining room window wide open as well.
Thinking this was a tad odd, considering that my now ex-girlfriend was at work at the time, I immediately assumed that someone had broken in. We didn’t have a burglur alarm at the time so no alarm had been raised.

I did a quick scout around, couldn’t see anyone inside or hear anything that suggested they were still in the property, however I still didn’t feel it was safe enough for me to enter on my own, so I got my mobile out and called 101. Admittedly I was on hold for a while as they tried to connect me to someone, so I hung up and dialled 999. Once through to them I explained that my house had been burgled and I tried to call the 101 number prior but couldn’t get through, they were understanding and said they would send someone round. About 20-25 minutes later two CID officers turned up. They came into the property with me, one checked the upstairs, the other went back outside to see if he could establish how the break-in happend. They also called for a Scenes of Crime officer to come have a look and dust for prints. Although they did a thorough dusting for prints, they could only find glove marks on the windows and the items within the property that they had touched.

All that was stolen was a rather cheap laptop and �300 in cash that was left on the bedside cabinet (we’d just sold some items to a friend the day before). They did try to take the XBox, but because it was wired into the TV and wall they must have given up on it and just left it dangling on the floor. Oddly enough they completley missed anything belonging to me, including my laptop and iPad.

Upon investigation, the officers concluded that we had left a small window open that could still be seen from the front even though it being behind a wooden gate/fence. I explained that we had a pet cat at the time and that was it’s entry/exit as we didn’t have a cat flap. They showed me that the wooden gate had been crowbared to gain access from the front of the property and hammer/screwdrivers had been used on the kitchen window in order to gain access to the property.

Overall they were very professional, compassionate and offered some good advice in order to help protect and secure the house to avoid it from happening again. We took them up on this advice and the very next day we called a locksmith who came around and repaired the kitchen window and he strengthend the wooden gate and put and additional lock and padlock on it as well as giving us even more advice about how to prevent a repeat.

For the next few days after, it was annoying to think that we had been broken into and that someone had been inside our house, looked through and taken some of our possessions, but at the end of the day…no ones life was endangered and we came out of the experience a lot wiser, and to me that was the most important thing.

I hope to god you never get burgled cloud 9 .I hope your house is so full of surveillance and anti theft devices that will stop a ram raider because with your outlook not only will the criminal take you and your family for everything you will stand by and watch them walk away from court with a slapped wrist.
Most burglars and criminals are REPEAT offenders so something isn’t working is it. :apologetic:

Simple. Because until both the law and the attitude are changed we, our families and our property will be threatened and burgled and we have a clear legal and moral right to protect and prevent.

Some of us fail to understand how you cannot understand that.

Yes charliehunt, I totally agree. I am in favour of tougher punishment as a clear deterrent as long as it is administered in the right way and by the right people. I would most certainly welcome a change in attitude by society.

What I cannot subscribe to is the thought of people taking the law into their owns hands and administering their own form of punishment that they feel fits the crime, whether it be at the time of the event or not.

We need to be tough on crime as well as the causes of crime. We need to work with those in society who are more likely to be led down a criminal path in order to instil the sense of responsibility for their actions, as you suggested earlier.

What we need is tougher punishment as a clear deterrent, which you gave the impression of being in favour of, and a change in attitude by society in favour of the victim being the victim instead of being victimised and the criminal being the criminal and being criminalised.

But it clearly is not acting as a deterrent otherwise peoples homes would not be broken in to. Perhaps it is proportionate but not strong enough.

The ‘relevant authorities’ cannot be relied upon to administer proportionate punishment.

Punishment, to be effective, has to discourage further criminality.

Ok, so you’d rather we simply do away with the legal system and just have mob-rule on our streets would you?

Cloud 9, people like you, holding those opinions, are central to the problem of rising levels of criminality.

So just because I don’t agree with what you or others say or would do in certain situations, that makes me a bad person does it?

Let me ask you a question: You are with your wife/girl friend or just a female friend. You become the victims of an assault with the female threatened with rape. What do you do? Wring your hands and say a prayer? Offer would-be rapists tea and toast? Call NHS Direct/RSPCA/RNLI or grab a weapon and get stuck in?

To be honest, I’m not out much after midnight at the best of times and I rarely frequent dark places where this kind of activity is likely to happen.

Hypothetically speaking, if I did find myself in the exact situation that you describe above my response would be quite simple…I would do my level best to get the female friend to safety by putting as much distance as humanly possible between the attacker/s and her. I would instruct her to run and find the nearest payphone and/or person she can find to help and then call the police. I certainly wouldn’t engage in confrontation/violence. And if the attacker/s ended up injuring, maiming or possibly killing me me as a result, then so be it, I’d rather it happen to me than to her. Plus the criminals would not just be looking at charges of assault and attempted rape…it would also include attempted murder, which would gaurentee them a stint in jail and get them off the streets.

Re 55

Cloud 9 (How I love that pen name!)

….”punishment should be proportionate and administered by the relevant authorities…”

That is the exact point that many here are making. The ‘relevant authorities’ cannot be relied upon to administer proportionate punishment.

Punishment, to be effective, has to discourage further criminality. The more so in the case of ‘career’ criminals. Fines, ASBOS, community service are used over and over again purely to restrict prison population growth and by the frequency of their use are thus brought into contempt.

Few who appear in court fear the consequences. We’ve gone from the awful times when a child could be strung up or transported for stealing a loaf of bread to the criminal justice system we now have where the punishment never fits the crime – in any sense. Unless of course, the ‘crime’ is an offence against the State – then, it seems to be a different matter requiring lengthy investigation and ultimately, condign punishment.

Cloud 9, people like you, holding those opinions, are central to the problem of rising levels of criminality. Those among us who are criminally minded rely upon the existence of people like you to continually bale them out on the back of every soft option and excuse that liberal opinion can produce. Liberal opinion NEVER runs out of excuses.

Your clear duty as a citizen is to try to influence your fellows with an understanding of moral responsibility and an awareness of conscience coupled to a clear concern for the welfare and consideration of others.

When proper outrage is expressed in these columns it does you no credit to strike a pose of concern for the perpetrator. We are all perfectly entitled to protect ourselves against any assault upon our life, limb or property.

We cannot completely rely on the police. Sometimes they arrive on the scene, sometimes they don’t. What shall we do while we’re waiting and being plundered? Make the bandit/s a cup of tea?

Let me ask you a question: You are with your wife/girl friend or just a female friend. You become the victims of an assault with the female threatened with rape. What do you do? Wring your hands and say a prayer? Offer would-be rapists tea and toast? Call NHS Direct/RSPCA/RNLI or grab a weapon and get stuck in?

No wonder they’re recruiting women to the Armed Forces.