Another PLO victory

RE: Another PLO victory

No, because obviously the PA is making no effort whatsoever to stop the terrorists from committing their heinous crimes. If that is the case, it is the duty of the IDF to protect the Israeli citizens. Since all other efforts failed, all that is left is temporarily take control over PA territory, to arrest terrorists, deter terrorists, and force the PA to finally take action against the terrorists.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

Please explain why the Israeli govt adopted the decision to reoccuppied the Palestinian state again yesterday????Another nonsense?
Or part of elaborate Israelis scheme???Hmmmmm……

RE: Another PLO victory

You’re talking nonsense, tomel. No Israeli government, whether Likud or Labor, wants to rule over the Palestinians anymore. They’re nothing but trouble.

RE: Another PLO victory

That’s a BIG NO my friend.I just said that “certain parties of the Israeli govt welcome the bombing incident”.Why?That’s the excuse the need to cancel the so call PALESTINIANS STATE.They(israeli) dont care if Saddam himself done the bombing as long the long term objective -to regulate the Palestinians as an outcast in their own land.

RE: Another PLO victory

I think Skythe and I understand your questions perfectly, Tomel. Again, ypu insinuate that we’d kill thirty of our own citizens just to gain some advantage.

RE: Another PLO victory

Skythe,please try to really understand my so call questions.I asked who might gained the most milage in this incident?To accussed the Israelis willing to killed its own people -simply to dramatic.I seriously think this kind of suicidal bombing would be welcome by certain parties in the ruling govt.

RE: Another PLO victory

You’ve figured it all out, haven’t you, Tomel? Is there a thing those evil Zionists wouldn’t do to gain the slightest advantage? we’d even kill thirty of our own, children on the way to school, entire families, wouldn’t we?

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: Another PLO victory

ANSWER THIS-WHO GAINED THE MOST POLITICAL/MILITARY ETC ADVANTAGE AFTER THE LATEST SERIES OF BOMBING?ISREALIS OR PALESTINIANS?ARAFAT OR SHARON????

RE: Another PLO victory

The Romans didn’t lead to diaspora. In fact, they wanted to give the Jews their own state, keep their own culture … Romans were NO ANTI-SEMITES.

After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD (IIRC), the Jewish people were lead into diapora by… the Romans.

Romans were always seen as the first anti-semites but they were not, in fact, they were rather tolerant towards other religions, though they could find them backwards.

The tolerance of other religions highly depended on what kind of Emperor was ruling the Roman empire and also on the local rulers. Some emperors were extremely anti-semites, others didn’t care. Some were anti-christian, some became christians themselves. But to declare that they were tolerant in general: no. The Second Temple was desecrated by the Romans, Jewish life was made very hard, a Jews were, at times, used as torches to light the gardens of the emperor.

Oh, and try to stop drawing parallels between the Jewish resistance to Roman rule and ‘modern’ terrorism.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-06-02 AT 12:29 PM (GMT)]>JJ,
>
>Thanks for the interesting reply, I appreciate it. If I
>understand you correctly, the Jewish people were dispersed
>across Europe (the diaspora) by the Roman Empire. Therefore
>for the best part of 2,000 years there was no Jewish state.

Some history on the Romans,

The Romans didn’t lead to diaspora. In fact, they wanted to give the Jews their own state, keep their own culture … Romans were NO ANTI-SEMITES. However, they were imperialistic, and they did want to Jews to recognise the Romans as the conquerers (by obeying Roman gods). Most European tribes did this, and therefor, could still keep their own traditions … the Jews did not accept this deal and were seen by the Roman Emperor as dangerous freedom fighters … probably even terrorists (if there existed such thing back than). Romans were always seen as the first anti-semites but they were not, in fact, they were rather tolerant towards other religions, though they could find them backwards. The Jews were even allowed to punish their own criminals, although then did not had the right to kill them without the permission of the Roman governour.

I want to give you the facts in Latin, anyone interested? 😀

RE: Follow the money…

I am cynical about peace prospects too, but for a different reason – money. There is too much money to be made from continued hostilities. Every suicide bombing brings in troves of cash from those who hate Israel, money to finance more bombings, money for the families of the bombers and money for Palestinian relief once the Israeli tanks move in. Some are becoming rich by skimming that cash and it is not in their best interest that hostilities end. As long as they continue to incite violence, there will be money to skim.

RE: Another PLO victory

here is my simple peace plan (note i’ve stayed out of this flame war for several months now)

a) to the israelis

the arabs/palestinas will acept an israeli state at the 67 border no problem.

if i was israel i would pull those right wing nutter settlers out o fhte west banks and gaza and get on with life. the syrian border and jersualem will be fun to sort out but just leave it for the moment.

QED war over, peace, get on with rebuilding war strechd economy . is this war worth it over some nutter isitng on living as settlers ??? therefore you’ve won

b) to the palestians – you’ve won. you defeated the evvil satan son (im joking american this is sarcasim).

serious you’ve won the gaza strip and most if not all of the west bank off israel. you would never militarilly do this but you can now.

QED war is over, palistina state, etc. rich saudis will pay for everything.

quite simply both sides have victory and peace in thier grasp. its these silly right wing settlers and hama/hezbollah.whaerve sucide bomber who don’t want to stop. boths side must suffer the short term political heat of restraing their resective radicals.

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unfortuntely im too cynical and pesermistic to hope that you lot will see this answer to your problems is staring you in the face. if you finsh the war you can get on with live in peace. peace is possible, look at egypt and jordian.

i seriosuly hope both sides come to an agrent cos i feel i know peopel on boths sides and your all diggin holes for your selves that will turn into your own graves

rabie :9

RE: Another PLO victory

“But the land of Israel exists in books and scriptures which have never been proved to be true or indeed untrue”

Actually Kev, the land of Israel is quite a historic fact. It exists well outsides the scriptures, in both archeology and in the documented history of other civilizations such as the Egyptian, Assyrian and later Greek and Roman. Among others there is Josephus’ Jewish Wars which details the last years of Jewish nationhood, until its destruction by the Roman. Or, if you’re ever in Rome, you could go and see the Titus Arch which features the treasures plundered from Herod’s Temple in Jerusalem.

—————————————-
U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: Another PLO victory

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-06-02 AT 07:11 PM (GMT)]So, the Palestinians should all be living in Jordan then. If that’s the case, where do we put all the Jordanians?

That would imply that the Jordanians actually are Palestinians. After all, Jordan and it’s citizens were originally part of the Mandate of Palestine.

Didn’t King Hussein kill thousands of Palestinians living in camps in the 60’s or 70’s?

Well, in the sixties Hussein supported PLO terrorists, who crossed the border into Israel, and carried out terrorist attacks there. However, slowly the PLO itself, with Arafat at it’s head, became a threat to King Hussein, becoming a state within a state, with all kinds if privileges and powers. The PLO became too powerfull, and was becoming a danger to the Hashemite rule. That is why King Hussein decided the PLO must leave. In 1970, he sent his army to finally kick the PLO out of Jordan, resultimg in the deaths of thousands (IIRC) Palestinians. After a short period of fighting the PLO went out. Syria didn’t want to absorb these PLO terrorists, as they knew they were trouble-makers. The PLO went to Lebanon, resulting in a civil war, and a continuation of terrorizong Israel, but this time from Lebanon.

But the land of Israel exists in books and scriptures which have never been proved to be true or indeed untrue. In that sense, if you have no christian belief, Isn’t Israel just as ethereal and insubstantial a place as Camelot or Xanadu?

Well, the accuracy of the Bible may be debatable, but there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel. Many archeological findings in Israel point to that.

And haven’t Palestinians always had a presence in Israel?

I don’t know about that, it isn’t clear whether the current Palestinians are the same people who once also populated (parts of) the land of Israel. There have been many rulers of the land of Israel, and many peoples lived there.

I am English and therefore consider myself to be living in a democratic state. I don’t see having tanks demolishing half of my town as a benefit.

I am not referring to the cities outside the Green Line, where many suicide bombers come from, where many terrorists can be found, and where the Palestinians fought fiercefully. Hence the need of tanks. I was talking about the Arab resident living inside the Green Line. They, like all Israelism benefit of the social security system, of the taxes, everything.

I wouldn’t consider it beneficial to have my family’s home demolished with 2 hours notice so that a settler from somewhere else can come in.

This is certainly not settlements are created. Settlements are created on empty lands, not in or on houses of Palestinians. Sure, houses of Palestinians are destroyed, but that is because they don’t have the permits to build them. And that is nothing racial, getting a building permit in Israel is hard and takes a long time, Jew or not.

I have never had to live under curfew and have never been prevented from taking a sick family member to the nearest hospital. Are these also the benefits of living in a democratic state@

I already explained numerous times why, at times, Palestinian ambulances are being stopped. I suggest you take a look at some older threads about Israel, like the one about Jenin. I do like to add that even suicide bombers whose mission failed, and still live, are being treated in Israeli hospitals, often laying not far away from their victims. I saw a most interesting documentary about Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem, exactly telling this story. I don’t think the Palestinians would do a similar thing if things were the other way around.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

JJ,

Thanks, think i’m getting there slow but sure.

“Also note that what is now known as Jordan was originally also part of the Mandate of Palestine, untill the Brits decided to give it to the Hashemite family. Hence Israel’s decades-long argument that there already is a Palestinian state.”

So, the Palestinians should all be living in Jordan then. If that’s the case, where do we put all the Jordanians? Didn’t King Hussein kill thousands of Palestinians living in camps in the 60’s or 70’s?
What was all that about?

“Jews always remained in the land of Israel. In Hebron there was an Jewish presence for centuries, in Jerusalem Jews lived since forever. In the entire land of Israel there was always a Jewish presence.”

But the land of Israel exists in books and scriptures which have never been proved to be true or indeed untrue. In that sense, if you have no christian belief, Isn’t Israel just as ethereal and insubstantial a place as Camelot or Xanadu? And haven’t Palestinians always had a presence in Israel?

“But some Arabs stayed, and they enjoy all the benefits of living in a democratic state.”

I am English and therefore consider myself to be living in a democratic state. I don’t see having tanks demolishing half of my town as a benefit. I wouldn’t consider it beneficial to have my family’s home demolished with 2 hours notice so that a settler from somewhere else can come in. I have never had to live under curfew and have never been prevented from taking a sick family member to the nearest hospital. Are these also the benefits of living in a democratic state@

Regards,

kev35

PS You have probably realised by now that there is a little of the devils’ advocate in me.

RE: Another PLO victory

Geforce, I have a dual nationality. I am both Dutch and Israeli. I support the US war on terror. I don’t like that new US law, that is discusses in the other thread very much. But on the other hand, I don’t think that the international court is goign to work as advertized. It will most certainly become politicized very fast. That, however, is a different story.

As an Israeli living in The Netherlands I am very concerend about what’s going on in Israel, I am concerned about my family, about the people I know there. And I don’t think someone else has the right to comment on that.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

>Seriously though JJ, just remember, that you (and your
>nation) will always have my (and my country’s hopefully)
>support.

JJ, aren’t you dutch rather than Israeli? –> .. always my support, yeah just look at the US agression thread.

I don’t know what that does for you, but I hope it
>is of a tiny bit of comfort. I realize here who the true
>terrorists are.

RE: Another PLO victory

You say they want “the entire land that was once the Mandate of Palestine.” So you agree that Palestine existed.

No, you must have misunderstood me. Palestine was never a country as such. Before the Mandate of Palestine, which was administered by the British, the Ottomans ruled the area. Palestine, as said was never a country. Also note that what is now known as Jordan was originally also part of the Mandate of Palestine, untill the Brits decided to give it to the Hashemite family. Hence Israel’s decades-long argument that there already is a Palestinian state.

But now Israel exists on that same piece of land. So, what happened to Palestine? Did Palestine and the Palestinian people cease to exist? Are you saying thet Israel and the Jewish people just planted themselves there and said o.k., I call this patch of land Israel?

Jews always remained in the land of Israel. In Hebron there was an Jewish presence for centuries, in Jerusalem Jews lived since forever. In the entire land of Israel there was always a Jewish presence. What happened in the 1920s and 1930s was that Jews decided to go back to where they once came from: the Land of Israel. This was partly due to European anti-semitism. And after WWII many Jews decided that they no longer wanted to live in Europe. The Jewish people were not safe there.

The state of Israel was, I believe, created in 1948, but do you believe it was right that your nation should be set up on someone else’s land and expect the indigenous population not to fight back?

The nation was not set on somebody elses land any more that that any state was created on somebody else’s land. However, Jews were ready to compromize: the Mandate of Palestine was to be split in two states: one for the Jews, and one for the Arabs. Furthermore, Israel was meant to be a state for all people. This view is echoed in the Decleration of Independance.

Israel has pushed the Palestinians into two pockets of land, the west bank and gaza and keeps the rest for themselves. Can this truly be justified?

Israel never pushed the Palestinians into to pockets of the West Bank. Many left of their own accord. But some Arabs stayed, and they enjoy all the benefits of living in a democratic state.

I hope this makes things more clear to you, Kev.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

JJ,

Thanks for the interesting reply, I appreciate it. If I understand you correctly, the Jewish people were dispersed across Europe (the diaspora) by the Roman Empire. Therefore for the best part of 2,000 years there was no Jewish state.

“These movements are intent on destroying Israel because they feel the land is theirs, and theirs only. They do not want to compromize, all they want (well, all) is the entire land that was once the Mandate of Palestine. Any compromize, or offer to compromize, has been rejected out of hand.”

You say they want “the entire land that was once the Mandate of Palestine.” So you agree that Palestine existed. But now Israel exists on that same piece of land. So, what happened to Palestine? Did Palestine and the Palestinian people cease to exist? Are you saying thet Israel and the Jewish people just planted themselves there and said o.k., I call this patch of land Israel? By what/whose authority? Do the Jewish people believe they have the authority to claim that land as their own to the detriment of the Palestinians already living there? The state of Israel was, I believe, created in 1948, but do you believe it was right that your nation should be set up on someone else’s land and expect the indigenous population not to fight back? Iraq occupied Kuwait during the Gulf War and Israel supported, politically, the resumption of the status quo, but conveniently forgets that to the Palestinians they are an occupying power. Israel has pushed the Palestinians into two pockets of land, the west bank and gaza and keeps the rest for themselves. Can this truly be justified?

“Since Israel is not about to surrender, and just give the land to
the Palestinians,” No, Israel is not about to surrender, but it seems surprising that you expect the Palestinians to.

I know you are really going to rip into me for this but these are questions to which I would like answers. I really do wish that a settlement could be reached. If a Palestinian child is shot dead by the Israeli military and an Israeli child dies in a Palestinian bus bombing, all you are left with are two dead children.

We have the technology to travel to the moon, we are building a space station, we can telephone each other from the other side of the world,
we can transplant human hearts so for Christ’s sake why can’t we sort out this mess? surely, there is enough room for everyone?

JJ, I sincerely hope this conflict ends soon. As a people, jews have suffered enough in this last century, and the Palestinians and yourselves are suffering enough now.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Another PLO victory

Thank you PII, and be sure that many Israelis are with you and the US too.