Any 614 Squadron specialists?

Hi all,

In the process of completing my 614 pathfinder article for Key Publishing. Unexpected delays has made this later than anticipated.

I also wanted to advise the cracking news that the PFF Museum at Wyton will also be telling the Squadron story. A really welcome development.

I will be getting text to them for their information boards in the coming weeks.

Best

Nick

Thank you Bill, much appreciated!

Nick

614 PICS……Or not?

Hi Nick,

Found them but having huge problems uploading images 😡 they appear absolutely massive for some reason, even having trouble writing script! NEVER had this trouble before.
They all have ‘Humphries’ in common, so I guess he picked them up during his service….POSS inc 614 Squadron. Probably allowed to keep them because they probably weren’t the best intelligence-wise! I probably haven’t copied the details 100% as some is a bit faint.

1. Image shows fields mostly, long exposure streaks of light, river?

1097 614//99 17APR’45 F8″//NT 7,500″ 278(degree symbol), 2?245 PORTO MAGGIORE CAM Y
8X8 FLARES 21 SECONDS W/O HUMPHRIES , F/S COOK B/A A/C ?

2. Image shows mountains covered in snow.

1059/614/9?3..10 APR 45. F8″//NT. 17000(degree symbol) 263 2143. INNSBRUCK STN M/YDS. “AA”
8X8 FLARES. MK111 265 FC (I think). W/O HUMPHRIES. F/O BAKER. B/A. A/C “U”.

3. Image shows nottalot! half dark, half light. with faint ground detail.

1128/614/103. 25/26. APR. 45. F8//NT.12000. 240. 22.41.5 FREILASSING. M/YARDS. “A”.

8X6 FLARES. MK111 22 SEC.. W/O HUMPHRIES. F/O CRISPIN. B/A. A/C “U”.

4. Image shows one long streak of light, poss explosion flash, river? fields.

2510. 70/4. 3/4 JAN’45 8// NT.6250 050 (degrees). 1/3 (?). SALCAND.
N.9X500,4X250LB. MK111 6. F/SGT HUMPHRIES.K. SGT RAE B/A.

5. Image shows mainly strips of rectangular fields. with poss railway running in a cutting, no ‘flares’ or smoke.

1074 614 95 (poss 45) 12 (?)APR’45. F8″//NT 8000″ 300(degree) 21.09 ARGENTA TOWN, CAM D.
8X8 FLARES, 18 SECS. W/O HUMPHRIES. F/S PARKER, A/C T.

Hi Bill – thank you!

No, I didn’t see your post. I searched but could not locate it?

Cheers

Nick

Hi Nick,
I will try and locate them, know I still have them, somewhere!……….hope I haven’t made a mistake, they are marked ‘614’ and dates places seem to fit.
Did you see my earlier post concerning the tatty AcrownM marked wooden chest to ‘614 (AC) Squadron? pre ww11. from the ORIGINAL 614 !

Thanks Simon.

Yes, 614 were the only designated operational path finding Squadron in an Overseas Command.

You are correct that other squadrons undertook target marking roles, as you say, the Wellingtons of 205 Group in ME and Italy did on an ad-hoc basis, but they were not formal path finding squadrons, as in having the equipment, using the techniques and undertaking the extended tours that path finders did. They fulfilled that role on a needs must basis.

This was the reason that 614 were created, the MAAF requested a dedicated path finding squadron to fulfil the role on a fulltime, dedicated basis. There was a reason that 614 did not use Wellingtons for their role, and that was because the aircraft was not suitable to perform the role on an effective, ongoing basis. Hence the Halifax being used until Liberators came on stream in late 1944.

So yes, it is true.

614 the only Pathfinders outside of the UK and 8 Group?

Hi Simon

Not sure what you mean by ‘Not true” – can you elaborate what you mean by this?

Thanks

Nick

Not true! 826 FAA in 1942 flying Swordfish and Albacores (well before the Pathfinder unit in the UK) were using flares in the Middle East and North Africa to highlight targets for bombers from 3000 feet whilst Wellington bombers from other squadrons flying higher would drop their bombs. See Find Fix and Strike by Terence Horsley who quotes a pilot from that squadron:-
“Half an hour later we’d be over the target at 30000ft and if we looked upwards we could generally see the faint silhouettes of the Wellington’s a couple of thousand feet above us. We’d drop a flare and then, when we were sure another and another, and the heavy stuff from the bombers would come down whistling past us to explode with a brilliant flame all around the target”
In November 1942 CPO Fred Hazeldine a TAG was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal for this type of Pathfinding.[ATTACH=CONFIG]253636[/ATTACH]

Hi Scramble – would it be possible to see scans of these?

I have researched 614 extensively and am always keen to see any related information of them.

Cheers

Nick

I have 3/4 target photos somewhere……..late ww11 Italy, I think they are dropping flares-target markers? either Halifax or Liberators.

Hi all

Just a note to say following extensive research on the Path Finder status of 614 (County of Glamorgan) Squadron, 1944/1945, I hope to be providing an article on this topic within the Key Publishing family over the coming weeks.

Cheers

Nick

Hi all

I see I am late to this thread! Just to add to the original OP, yes, from their second incarnation 614 Sq were unequivocally Pathfinders – the only PFs outside of the UK and 8 Group.

Apologies for jumping into this thread out of the blue, but I was fumbling around on Google and found this topic. My Uncle Sid was in this squadron, he died a few years ago, but was someone that everyone remembered with huge affection.

I am hoping to get copies of his log book and anything else he had, I know my auntie, who is still alive, has everything, so if can I will post up anything interesting on here. No promises as to when, this is being done via my sister in Canada who is in contact with the auntie who lives in Northamptonshire….and her daughter who lives in Australia?

If anyone knows where to find any records relating to Sid Gardner then I would be very grateful for any pointers. He came down the aircraft steps at the end of the war and swore he would never get in another plane for the rest of his life, he never did.

Regards

Rob G

614 Sqn – Special Forces?

I apologise if I am high jacking a thread. The link is tenuous. The linked website has been raised for

http://www.memorialgrove.org.uk/royalairforceservicingcommandosawards.htm#glossary

Under 3225 SCU; there is a Unit Commendation to Commanding Officers of 15 and 614 Squadrons. 15 were in France but as previously posted 614 were in Tunisia. I have found elsewhere that it may not be 15 Sqn that were nominated for this award. Included are 4 X MiD’s.

Recently I have found that one of my favourite uncles is mentioned in dispatches for his work in the Middle East (Palestine/Israel?). Unfortunately he passed away some 40 years ago so is unavailable for comment. Knowing him he would not have told me anyway. I have his Service Record but am no further forward. The rest of the extended surviving families are as much a loss as to the reasons for these Citations as I am.

The book “A History of the R.A.F. Servicing Commandos by J P Kellett & J Davies (ISBN 185310 051 X) does not enlighten the reader due to the authors not being involved with 3225 SC.

Now to my question? Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Citation/signal remembering its Special Forces. Cannot find anything in the London Gazette. Do you have any further information to the deployment of 3225 SC?

Once again we are in the hands of you genius’s out there.

Thanks for your time

Bob

No. 614 was technically never part of Bomber Command.

Though in 1944 they were a squadron equipped with bombers, they were based in Italy. Bomber Command were all UK based

(Unless somebody here knows different, which they frequently do)

Moggy

Bomber Command.

Can anyone please tell me if 614 were in Bomber Command. I always thought they were but have been told that they never were and certainly not in June 1944 even though a couple if sites say they were, well in the RAF anyway…
I would love some help on this… g

Bits and pieces, bits and pieces….

This:

One such squadron (614 Squadron) was formed and trained by the Path Finder Force, at Newmarket, on the world famous race course converted to a war-time airfield, and then transferred to Italy after the Italian surrender, to mark targets in southern Europe for attack by bomber forces of No. 205 Group based in southern Italy. The crews in this force faced a double enemy, the German defences, and the ferocious storm and icing conditions over the mountains, which had to be crossed twice on every sortie. That small detached force of Pathfinders surely deserves its own historian. Link: http://www.peoplehelp.com.au/scotland/history.html

shows that 614 Squadron did indeed operate as a Pathfinder Squadron, corroborating the Veteran’s story and that related by grounded. However, two sources, Halley and Jefford, state that 614 was reformed in February 1944 by renumbering 462 RAAF Squadron which was at that time operating Halifaxes out of El Adem. Therefore, somewhere, the confusion arose about 614 being formed and trained for the role at Newmarket.

Further to this, 462 Squadron were disbanded in February 1944 and reformed at Driffield in August 1944. 462 had the distinction of being the only RAAF heavy bomber Squadron to be operating from outside of the UK. It was formed in August/September of 1942 from detachments of 10 and 76 Squadrons. Further to this, it appears that the disbandment of 462 in February of 1944 was the result of the fact that the Squadron had always had very few Australian personnel and it was decided that the Squadron should reform as 462 RAAF back in the UK with predominantly Australian members.

Regards,

kev35

*Grins*

Kev, don’t let me stop you.

I am so miffed that i didn’t think to get some contact details of this veteran. But we were in ‘social mode’, the concert was one of Mrs Moggy’s Christmas presents (John Barrowman) and had it not been I would have spent the entire second half in the bar where he remained finding the volume levels of the concert too high even for his damaged hearing. Many hours with Wright Cyclones thundering away feet from your ears does have an effect.

For your interest he’d also done some Wellington time, so possibly before 614. I think he mentioned a total of 87 ops so it does look like the tours were considerably longer than the ETO 30 trips.

Moggy

Moggy.

At the risk of boring you to death, I decided to take a glance at the losses sustained by 614 from their introduction to operations in North Africa in November 1942 until the end of December the same year as covered by Bomber Losses in the Middle East and Mediterranean Volume 1 by Gunby and Temple. Here’s what I found:

17th November 1942. Blenheim V BA829 Relocation Flight.

Took off 0400 Portreath, on relocation to the Middle East via Gibraltar, but force-landed at about 1000 hrs at Aldeia Nova, Portugal. The crew were briefly interred.

P/O C P C De Wesselow
F/Sgt I J Self
Sgt W D B Bunting RNZAF

Just as an indicator of the pace of operations in the area in which 614 would be operating, 18 Squadron lost six Blenheims on a single operation on this date. The target was the aerodrome at Bizerta. Two collided on approach to the target while the remainder were shot down by Bf 109’s. Of the eighteen crew members aboard these aircraft, nine were killed whilst three were captured. The arrival of 614 at Blida produced a hurried introduction to operations. The Squadron’s first operational loss occurred just three days later.

20th November 1942. Blenheim V BA726 Op: Bizerta.

Took off 0053 Blida, to bomb Bizerta Harbour. Hit by flak, the undercarriage collapsing on landing, Blida. DBR.

P/O N Marwood Tucker
F/Sgt E Yelland
Sgt A S Roberts RNZAF

24th November 1942. Blenheim V BA821 Ground.

Damaged, possibly in an air raid, Blida, and SOC.

29th November 1942. Blenheim V BA748 Ground.

Hit by another aircraft while parked, Blida, and DBR.

2nd December 1942. Blenheim V BA872 Op: Tunis.

Took off 0215, Blida, to bomb Tunis Aerodrome, but on return crashed at Celle at 0625 hrs. The dead are buried at La Reunion War Vemetery, Bougie.

F/O T A B Young Killed
W/O1 G T Campbell RCAF Killed
Sgt A J Walsh RCAF Injured.

4th December 1942. Blenheim V BA734 ‘Y’ Op: Robb

Took off 1515, Canrobert, for Souk el Arba and from there to attack Robb aerodrome 14km north of Chouigui. Damaged by Bf 109 fighters and crash-landed 5km east of Soul el Khemis.

F/O W H Irving
F/O L A Quevatre
Sgt G A Limoges RCAF

Blenheim V BA800 ‘D’ Op: Robb

Took off Canrobert 1515, then Souk el Arba detailed as above. Almost certainly shot down by Bf 109 fighters in or near the target area. The crew, from 18 Squadron, is commemorated on the Malta Memorial.

F/Lt A Breakey Killed
F/Sgt A W Simpson Killed
F/Sgt S H Greene Killed

Blenheim V BA869 ‘N’ Op: Robb

Took off Canrobert, 1515, then Souk el Arba, detailed as above. Almost certainly shot down by Bf 109 fighters. The aircraft crashed near Beja and burnt out. All of the crew are buried at Beja War Cemetery.

F/O C H Georges Killed
F/Sgt J Taylor Killed
Sgt M W Sorbie Killed

18 Squadron lost another six aircraft on this date. Twelve were killed and four injured. Amongst the dead was W/Cdr H G Malcolm MiD, who was awarded a posthumous VC for exceptional bravery on the operations of the 17th and 28th November and the one on which he was killed.

17th December 1942 Blenheim V BA732 Op: Tunis or Bizerta Docks.

On take off 1750, Canrobert, a tyre burst, the aircraft swung and the undercarriage collapsed. DBF. Of seven 614 Squadron Blenheims detailed, bad weather meant that only two managed to take off.

S/Ldr P de L Le Cheminant
F/O W Service
P/O J W Ryder

18 Squadron started its journey to Blida on the 11th of November, losing two aircraft en route. First operational loss was on the 16th November. By December 31st, the Squadron had lost twenty-one aircraft. Twenty-six members of the Squadron had been killed.

I know this probably isn’t what Moggy expected or wanted but I just got carried away. I know from my 37 Squadron research that their crews were required to carry out 40 operations in order to complete a tour rather than the normal 30 in Bomber Command, ostensibly because things were ‘easier’ in the Middle East. Try telling that to the Blenheim crews. Very, very sobering reading.

Regards,

kev35