Any more British Heavy Bomber restorations?? (2006/7 Zombie)

Having doubtless duly been through a tender board for disposal and at a much later date and under very different circumstances.

Quite simple -it would be seen as profiteering and thus have been illegal.

Well it certainly happened in some places such as Singapore, with the last of the Sunderlands – they went to the local scrappies.

A colleague of mine who was in Aden as the RAF withdrew, recalled how the stores were emptied and dumped in pits and/or burned. More cost effective to dump than to bring back to the UK.

John

[QUOTE=D1566;1322131]I really cannot imagine anyone going to the trouble of burying these airframes when the local scrappies would undoubtedly be quite happy to take them. QUOTE]

Quite simple -it would be seen as profiteering and thus have been illegal.

I’d have thought building a big hole would be quicker than making the bits smaller.

I really cannot imagine anyone going to the trouble of burying these airframes when the local scrappies would undoubtedly be quite happy to take them. Even if they had been buried, you would think that the plant operator would make the remains as small as possible (IE crushed) to avoid having to spend hours digging a bigger hole ……

I think one of the biggest hurdles will getting Hercules engines plus hardly any type records. More chance of getting a halibag flying methinks

re

The money is out there, and the determination, but the barrier as I see it would be these wretched rules that have hit The B17s, and will hit any other 4 engined bomber. Is there any news on Just Jane?

agreed, but if i doubt very much we would see it fly 🙁

re

I have allways dreamed of everyone pointing at a dot on the horizon and saying “not Sally B, way 2 big, its got a one fin so its not the Lanc, it cant be, HANG ON! Where the hell did that Stirling come from?” – even at school I knew this was pure fantasy!

There must be a Stirling out there somwhere!

.
I have been corresponding privately over this story, and I am convinced the eye witness was a reliable and credible source, unfortunately he has passed away.

Seperately I have been exchanging email with Alwyn York whose own website on RAF Kasfareet I linked some photos and the map from in earlier posts.

Alwyn cant recall any Stirlings although he was on site in much later years to the apparant burial in 1946/47, and he is corresponding with other former servicemen from the site, who at this stage also do not recall the Stirlings, but one apparantly does recall a dump?

In any case he also provided me with an image from the wartime days of Kasfareet, again with no Stirlings but some other interesting types, that I post here to share for your interest.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

A view from above

Hi folks;
How about a radar shot of the airfield from satilitte?
They have been used to find and follow the silk
road to a lost city or two in Iraq and Mayan sites.
It should show where the trench is.anyone who
knows someone who might help?It might be a starting
point that’s cheaper?Or is there something like
Landsat images that would help? Corona snaps,SR71?;)

About heavy bombers…even the comparatively wealthy CAF is having troubles funding engines/props for its B-29.

Now the Boeing is more complex than a Halifax or Stirling, but as mentioned, it still takes a lot of money.

Nice dream about the Stirlings….if it comes true, I’ll donate 100 quid to the project.

Sounds like a good project for the National Geographic Society and a basis for a program on their TV network.

That would be the recovery of the decade (perhaps century), would be nice if an investigation on site was to be executed.
Imagine several wingless Stirling fuselages lying side by side:eek:
Cheers

Cees

A site Map sketch of RAF Kasfareet in 1947, and other period photos of the base from 1953-1956.

http://rafkasfareet1953-56.piczo.com/?cr=1

Despite the google earth photo showing what seems hard bare ground, the photos on Alwyn York’s website seem to show a very desert “sand” surface? making burial perhaps more viable and easier to conceal that I would have thought?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Why not:p

In 1986 (2 decades) the Egyptian Air Force, after persistent requests from the RAF Museum, conducted a 100 km square air search over the desert for the remains of Stirlings reputed to have been seen at Kas Fareet, near the Suez Canal. Doubts had been expressed about four engine aircraft ever having used the runways there, but the possibility becaume a certainty when the aeroplane spotting records of Denys Voaden were produced showing that in 1947 the north dump at 107 MU, Kas Fareet, held seven 1589 HFF Stirlings. However the Arab-Israeli war had passed over this part of Egypt in the 1950’s and everything left was probably removed in the later battle field clearance projects.

Quoted from the Stirling File, Air Britain

It would be nice if there are still bits left (as are the Mk 22 Spitfires in Syria). But who will want to have a look at the area.

Cheers

Cees

Thanks for that . My father watched them buried at Kasfereet post-war and we triggered the RAF Museum via Jack Bruce in the late 70’s to the episode.
I just wondered why the term “alleged” crept in.

No Problem 🙂
A big trench was dug out with bulldozers -apparently about 500m long and 15-20m deep alongside the airfield. A large amount of redundant equipment of all sorts was then hauled into it.
The Stirlings were towed in, their undercarriages retracted and the wings hacked off. Eventually the entire “grave” was bulldozed back over.
As I understood it the EAF only looked over the surface at a later date.
I would be interested in any confirmation that the kit was actually dug up by the Egyptians. IIRC we were informed it was a somewhat expanded MiG 21 base in the 70’s.

Seems Kasfareet is abandoned, largely intact and undisturbed or built over, (there does seem to be a Missile base to the north?)

So “25 deg south” can the location of the trench be identified? -who’se got a spade?

google earth co-ordinates N 30° 14′ 31” E 32° 24′ 39”

“Free Short Stirling to the first person to find them”

smiles

Mark Pilkington

Well, there’s always a Washington, if you fancy something really large, with roundels…

And if a Halifax is going to be found as a basis for a flying, or even a taxying resto, just make sure it has Merlins to begin with!

gv

There are SO many issues with rebuilding an aircraft like a Halifax to fly in the UK, and the perceived rewards may not be as great as you envisage.

The big problem from a certification point of view, is availability of drawings, and support from the original manufacturer. I am certain that drawings are in a short supply, and the original manufacturer no longer exists. This is a big problem from the CAA point of view.

To get the support you would need would require a fortune spending (much like the Vulcan) to acquire, and a vast, ongoing amount to keep it going (again, think Vulcan)

I would guess that you would be looking at figures in the order of £25-30m to get a Halifax close to flight. My guess is that I am rather light here! That assumes that you can get the support both from the CAA and some form of design authority support to do it in the first place.

I would like to see a Halifax, Stirling and Wellington carefully and professionally restored in the UK, with minimum loss of original structure and parts. If the right airframes were available (currently they are not), I dont see why it would not be possible. To fly? Not in my lifetime!

Bruce

Couldn’t agree with you more Bruce,

AFAIK the drawings for the Halifax and Hampden are not complete, ruling out a new built aircraft.
I would like to see these aircraft to be airworthy. But if there aren’t even enough static airframes in museums (musea), the chances to see an airworthy aircraft are nil! Let’s face it. A static aircraft is impressive in it’s own right and should (in my opinon) be the set standard.
Let’s make sure that the available airframes/wrecks are properly preserved and restored. The past has shown that airframes still turn up. The problem as always is cost. Who is willing to pay a lot of money for say a Whitley or Hampden, which are not as sexy as a B25 or B26. But, that doesn’t mean that it can’t be done, time will tell.

Cheers

Cees

There are SO many issues with rebuilding an aircraft like a Halifax to fly in the UK, and the perceived rewards may not be as great as you envisage.

The big problem from a certification point of view, is availability of drawings, and support from the original manufacturer. I am certain that drawings are in a short supply, and the original manufacturer no longer exists. This is a big problem from the CAA point of view.

To get the support you would need would require a fortune spending (much like the Vulcan) to acquire, and a vast, ongoing amount to keep it going (again, think Vulcan)

I would guess that you would be looking at figures in the order of £25-30m to get a Halifax close to flight. My guess is that I am rather light here! That assumes that you can get the support both from the CAA and some form of design authority support to do it in the first place.

I would like to see a Halifax, Stirling and Wellington carefully and professionally restored in the UK, with minimum loss of original structure and parts. If the right airframes were available (currently they are not), I dont see why it would not be possible. To fly? Not in my lifetime!

Bruce

Perhaps someone who knows could put things in perspective?

I’m certainly not one of those people, but lets make some guesses, and lets pick a Halifax in a lake for arguements sake.

And lets go best case scenario, a COMPLETE Halifax. And hey, lets say there’s even records showing that all crew are accounted for. No War Grave issues.

Ok. STEP 1 – A group able to make a proper search, and actually find and survey the site properly. (Include time and funds…) The site is likely mainland europe, destination UK. Insert years of RED-TAPE wrangling here —-> .

STEP 2 – How accessible is the site? How far to the nearest road? Likely to be far. Need to organise large helicopter. And pay for it. Also barge or some appropriate vessel large enough to do the job. Better hope that road isn’t THAT far… Need to pay for this too. Also a crew experienced in this sort of thing. Including divers to dismantle the wreck… etc etc. Expensive.

STEP 3 – Lets say all the pieces have been located and returned to land safely. Lets say theres no problem getting it all back to the UK. (Will steps will need to be taken to stop corrosion? Or is this more for salt water?)

STEP 4 – Perhaps now we’ve got a Halifax wreck. Sure it’s complete, but it’s likely bent. How airworthy are parts that have been underwater for 65 years? Will likely need to rebuild many parts. Especially the big, expensive structural parts. After already spending, what.. millions (?) of whatever currency to get the wreck, expect to spend several more to rebuild it. Structure, Sheeting, Electrical, Hydraulic, Fuel Systems, etc etc. Don’t forget the engines…. Not all aircraft / components etc. have plans available anymore.

STEP 5 – Who owns this thing? How many owners? How many different ideas for it’s eventual outcome? Could this get ugly?

STEP 6 – Lets say it was decided to rebuild to fly. Think Facilities, Large Staff, Crew, Insurance, etc. How much money is lost if it crashes? I understand a B-17, B-24 costs something like US$4000 per hour to run, factoring fuel, oil, maintenance, insurance, etc. This isn’t a way to make money either. You’ll need a bottomless pit of funds.

Anyway, that’s just my guess… Im sure I’ve missed a lot. I just wanted to try put a little perspective on the issue.