ANZAC Day.

For some reason over and above the other horrors and events of WWI (and WWII), this campaign, location and date has become the point of focus and remembrance for Aussies and Kiwis

cheers D

Well, I’m not the most informed person on this subject but piecing together snippets I’ve read, been told and heard on the radio, the main reason is because the first Anzac Day was held on the 25th of April 1916, just a few months after the campaign had finished. In between times, nothing much else happened, the Kiwis didn’t arrive in France till April 1916, so parents back home had no more to grieve about except Gallipoli at that stage.

Anzac Day came about not for any national significance or Government decree as such, but as can be imagined for many families it was some time before they even heard their loved ones had been killed, and the shock of the campaign had begun to hit hard nationally by the turn of 1916, especially when it was then know to have been in vane and a defeat, and many soldiers were returning wounded and telling of the campaign.

Most families and friends of those killed had trouble coming to terms with this shock – remember it had never happened before in these countries. The idea of a significant day of rememberance was mooted as a way of being a collective funeral, for everyone to go through the grieving process properly, as no bodies could be returned. I believe someone within the RSA – which was brand new then – had the idea in NZ, and it started independently for the same reason in Australia from what I believe.

Wellington or somewhere like that reported they were to mark the day with a special ceremony. This news spread through the press, and soon everywhere wanted to do it. They were generally small ceremonies, and really just for the families and friends. It was never expected to carry on but as the years progressed and more and more of our soldiers were killed, it continued to be necessary till it just developed into an annual national day of mourning and rememberance.

Apparently here in cambridge when the first Anzac Day was being arranged by a local soldier who’d returned from Gallipoli minus his arm, he wanted to bring all the churches in. There was a huge spat over denominations, as there would have been in those days, and in the end he quit and gave up. But people said it HAD to happen so they threatened the churches and eventually it came to pass that memebrs of congregations from all churches were allowed to attend, so long as the word God and any religious aspect was not mentioned. Crazy story, but there you are.

Indeed.

Erin, ANZAC Day commemorates the date of the landing (in 1915) of the Australia and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC) who along with many others (see JDKs post above) were sent under and by English command to secure and thereby cut-off the Dardanelles in WWI. I’m far from up on the strategy, someone here can contribute that I’m sure.

The point is that for us this was a defining moment. ANZAC troops (and the others, and the Turkish defenders) suffered significant casualties and the whole thing was doomed from the start. Many of the ANZACs after being withdrawn went on to serve in France. The memory is of gallantly facing hopeless odds, perseverance, supporting your mates, gallantry and self-sacrifice, and the futility and waste of war.

For some reason over and above the other horrors and events of WWI (and WWII), this campaign, location and date has become the point of focus and remembrance for Aussies and Kiwis – and it is a sign of great significance to both NZ and AU of our bonding together in adversity.

cheers D

That’s a great post.
Thanks, Erin
🙂

TNZ

Hi guys :),

I certainly wont pretend to be well versed in battles of WWI , or Gallipoli, to be specific.
A lot of what you have said in this thread is over my head; for obvious reasons, and if anyone wants to tell me about Gallipoli and ANZAC day privatley- I’m happy to hear it.

What I wanted to say here is that; well, maybe 20- 30,000 people may not seem to be alot. But, it seems here that Veterans day is more or less ignored each year. What I find ironic is that bank and government employees have the day off…but, the actual veterans dont get it off :rolleyes:

So, when I read about these memorial services bringing out huge crowds; I’m glad to see it. One thing I have learned from this site; and from my visit to the UK in Nov. is that anniversaries and veterans are taken very very seriously. I don’t see that here in the States. I like to say it’s because I’m not really looking; but I wasn’t actively looking for memorials in Britain either…

Veterans affairs is an issue that seems like it could use work, everywhere. But as far as remembering the battles, and the people who fell….it’s good. You say “Always remember” and “Never forget” and you mean it. That’s…good, very good.

So, I’m glad this thread was pointed out to me, and I’m sorry I don’t know as much as I should know about the date itself.

Erin
🙂

Andy

When I pop over no wimp tunnel for you lad I want to see you swim the bugger and theeeen you can buy me a nice frog lunch and I will buy you a nice bootfull of cheap frog booze which we will both kid ourselves is better than a Nice Aussie Nue san Wagga Wagga – people Poo Poo Ausie wines but at least we can all take the **** out of the Kiwis wines – it’s only fair !!!

Regards
John

Love to – cheers D

Gnome
The Somme several times (once with Middlebrook but mostly with his guidebook) and me and Mrs AiB spent a week in Turkey with MM in 1998.
Five days on the peninsular.

When you get to England, we’ll pop over in the car (via the tunnel)–it’s dead easy.
Cheers
Andy

I should have added, for the record … my grandfather served at both Gallipoli and the Somme, being invalided home from France having suffered in a gas attack. He lost all his hair! I’ve lost most of mine too – hmmm.

Andy, do I recall you saying you’d toured the Somme or similar with Martin Middlebrook? I must and will make the pilgrimage one day.

Lest we forget

Great thread Andy 😉 .

My Great grandfather on mother’s side(Henry Hutchinson,Scot’s decent) was killed at the Battle of Flander’s at 27 year’s old, and then the next dude Great grandma married had come back from Gallipoli full of hole’s, plate’s and screw’s after the battle(died late 1950’s, I was told complication’s from old War wound’s).

Lest we forget.

R.I.P. all those from all the World’s war’s on both side’s of the coin 🙁 .

Cheer’s all, Tally Ho! Ho! Phil.

Hear hear John. Well put.

During the Anzac Service I thought about my great-great uncle, Frank Fitness, who was Mum’s grandfather’s brother. We know so little of him because he was the ‘black-sheep of the family. Not because he did anything wrong, but because he is thought to have been illegitimate. I’m sure he was well loved and cared for in the family but he was not spoken of after his death and all living memory of the man has vanished. All we had was a photo of him in uniform, and Mum sourced his service records, which told quite a tale. He went to Gallipoli, and was wounded there. He returned and then fought for two more years in France, wounded twice more, before being killed on the 23rd of June 1917. My forebears may have chosen to forget hijm, but I consider him quite a hero and I for one will not forget. He was the only immediate member of my family to have served in the Great War as far as I know.

I think about my great-uncles who served at war in the 2NZEF and the RNZAF. Most of them have passed away since, some I never met.

I also think of my Mum’s cousin, Pat Bourke, who served in Vietnam. I used to enjoy a beer with him on Anzac Days in the 1990’s. He died a few years ago from cancer, which we all believe was due to his exposure to Agent Orange, even if the powers that be won’t accept it.

I think of mates I served with in the RNZAF too who are no longer around. Three were killed in car accidents. They didn’t fall in battle but to me they are fallen comrades.

And I thought very much about the Cambridge airmen who I have spent the past year and a half researching. The around 40 killed in action, and the many more who returned – some of whom were in the ever diminishing ranks on parade.

By the way – To amend what I wrote above about Freyberg, it seems he swam ashore on the 24th to set up flares at a different beach from where they landed, in order to divert Turk troops away from the landing beaches. This is why he got the DSO.

Hi ANZAC day is over I am reflecting a little on it. I know this will be unpopular and will probably get my post banished but it has to be said

Australians are now in another war – not of our making and at the behest of our political masters for better or worse. We are now defending the Japanese against the Iraqi “Terrorists” – funny old world.

My Grand father Robert Benetts was a AIF sergeant and served at Gallopli and later in Egypt – he was luckily uninjured and was able to come home and be my Grandfather – he didn’t talk much except to say that he thought the Germans and Turks were fine soldiers and it was a tough war which he never wanted to repeat.

My Father Norm Parker was a Corporal in the 2/2nd Commandos and went to war on Timor and spent 3 years trapped there being an insurgent and a real pain in the backside to the Japanese – It is interesting to note that to his dying day he hated the Japanese – wouldn’t even buy a Japanese radio – because of what he had seen and endured on Timor. Now the Japanese are largely denying in their textbooks etc that most of this happened – at least they are not willing to face it – it is culturally difficult for them to live with the shame.

Well it must be an interesting exercise for the Aussies defending these blokes when their country refuses to acknowledge history etc. It is the Australian way to forgive but acknowledgement must be part of that. The Chinese are also having a problem with this at the moment – good on em I say – more guts than our polies – “who do not wish to take sides” Well Mr Howard (Aus PM) my dad took sides and so did the Timorese defending and dying for the Aussies and the least you could do is make the #$$%^&& s acknowledge it so we can forgive them and move on but no – political fence sitting is the major contribution we make to the fabric of the planet these days and ensuring George and Haliburton get the oil and we get a cushy Free trade deal as our 30 peices of silver. We even have the hide to screw the Timorese over oil rights on their border – the poorest country in the world. I am glad Norm is dead and isn’t seeing this

I am not proud of Vietnam , nor Iraq nor this current mess but at least people can respect the people we are putting in harms way and allocate the responsability where it belongs – the polies. I am however bloody proud of the troops who fight in these conflicts The soldiers lot is to do what he is told but it is our responsability to see to it that the polies don’t abuse that trust and only put people in harms way for a higher purpose. Remember that every time you vote.

Regards
John

Great thread, thank you Andy … and James and Dave for your thoughtful reflections and interesting information. As many of you know, I lived in Australia for the best part of ther last decade and can vouch for the increasing recognition of ANZAC day over that period – on returning to NZ I have found it much the same here – as you all say, more than just rememberance, very much a statement of Nationhood.

And here’s an interesting article in the Sydney Morning Herald… comments by Vice-Marshal Bruce Ferguson, New Zealand counterpart to Australia’s General Peter Cosgrove, head of the Defence Forces.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Side-by-side-on-the-shores-of-a-tragic-slaughter/2005/04/25/1114281508549.html

cheers Don

I will be paying a visit to the Commonwealth Cemetery at Cannock Chase soon, I’ll take some photo’s of the wreaths. In this Cemetery lie quite a few New Zealanders who died as a result of the flu epidemic after the Armistice. I like to think that although they are many thousands of miles from home, they are often remembered and visited. It’s a place of considerable beauty, peace and tranquility.

It’s sobering to think that these fine young men left all that was dear to them and their reward a simple plot on English soil. If any of our New Zealand contingent know of families who have loved ones interred at Cannock Chase, I would be honoured to photograph the grave for them.

Kind Regards,

kev35

An interesting number of juxtapositions here (www.yahoo.com.au)

Winds of change hit Iraq Anzac memorials

The winds of change swept across a dusty parade ground in southern Iraq as Japanese soldiers commemorated Anzac Day side-by-side their Australian protectors.
…

The Al Muthanna Task Group troops have been deployed to the region to protect Japanese engineers engaged in humanitarian work.

A number of Japanese troops including the regional commander, Kiyohiko Ota, joined the Australians in commemorating Anzac Day at their new home, Camp Smitty.

Later, one of the Australian troops, Corporal Michael Armstrong, spoke of his feelings about the fact his grandfather had fought against the Japanese as a special forces officer in World War II.

“Personally I don’t think my grandfather is turning in his grave,” Cpl Armstrong told ABC TV.

“What’s past is past and perhaps people can, I won’t say forgive and forget, but just put it in the past.”

Commander of Australian forces in southern Iraq, Lieutenant Colonel Roger Noble, said he felt a sense of history.

He said while Australia and Japan had been enemies during World War II, they were now proud to be helping rebuild Iraq together.

Cmdr Noble said he was also proud of the fact the new mission was effectively starting on Anzac Day.

“I think it’s fantastic to get there for Anzac Day,” he said.

He said the Australian military had historic links to the region with a number of Australian soldiers during World War I having operated across southern Iraq.

“Quite a few (pilots) of them were killed, a number were captured,” he said.

…

Colonel Orhan Goktepe, commander of the Turkish contingent in Iraq, read Kamal Ataturk’s tribute to the Anzacs and spoke of a mutual respect and friendship between Turkey and Australia.

Dave, I won’t comment on the status of politicos at memorial services. Funny there’s never a headstone for a Prime Minister on a battlefront.

From ‘The Age’ (www.theage.com.au)

The Anzac legend enjoyed a resurgence of support on its 90th anniversary, with big increases in attendances at Victoria’s dawn service and veterans’ march.

Up to 30,000 people packed Melbourne’s Shrine of Remembrance for the Anzac Day dawn service, well above attendances of 20,000 people in previous years.

Meanwhile, the veterans’ parade in the city centre had more than 12,500 veterans and their families marching and thousands more cheering them on a mild and sunny autumn day.

…

World War II veteran Bill Kilpatrick, who has not missed an Anzac Day parade in 60 years, welcomed the surge of young people attending the march.

“It’s nice to be recognised; there’s a lot of young people here who learn more about the history of wars,” the 86-year-old said.

“I hope they will learn and there will never be another war.”

The figures – James, never fear, the NZ figure you quoted is the proper official figure that has been thought correct since the olden days. Richard’s book was released only this week. The newspaper can be forgiven for not catching up I guess. 🙂

Phuoc Tuy – Ah, so it should have been late 60’s, not late 70’s?

I guess that is true about not learning. How many more names will be added to Cenotaphs in Australia if this current war ever ends? New Zealand seems to have broken with Australia on that aspect. We have not sent a combat force to a war since Vietnam I believe, if you don’t count the SAS who are always at war with someone, somewhere secretly.

In the 1990 Gulf crisis NZ very nearly sent No. 75 Sqn with its Skyhawks. All the sqn was trained up and had their jabs and stabs, but at the last minute the plug was pulled, and a non-combatant force was sent to the Gulf War – two No. 40 Hercs for supplying and a medical team. Though I am glad we didn’t send the A4K’s in a way, I think they’d have done a very good job for both ther war effort and the RNZAF’s reputation. And I’d have loved to see one in desert pink.

We send medical teams and peacekeepers all over the world. That’s our country’s main aim these days it seems. Peace. Our military did take on the French, not in a war but close when we helped to force the stoppage of nuclear testing.

Over the years we have been good at war games with other nations, but put those skills into keeping the peace. I just wish more resources could be chanelled into the RNZAF so we can continue to preserve our peaceful status and benevolent nature a little more credibly.

It was an interesting twist in Anzac relations when John Howard decided to snub the NZ Gallipoli commemorations at Chunuk Bair today so he could go to a barbecue. He’s obviously decided who his friends are and that he no longer wants an Anzac alliance. He upset a lot of people here including politicians. It seems many Aussies at Gallipoli have come out against his decision too, saying he’s a fool.

“Vietnam, I assume, Dave. And Australia and New Zealand have indeed often had PBI (poor bloody infantry) in the same mess since; however the point was also the re-use of the name ANZAC.”

Pinched from the AWM site:-‘The following year the Australian government’s concern grew to the point where it felt that, if Australia were involved in the conflict, its presence should be both strong and identifiable. In March 1966 the government announced the dispatch of a taskforce to replace 1 RAR, consisting of two battalions and support services (including a RAAF squadron of Iroquois helicopters), to be based at Nui Dat, Phouc Tuy province. Unlike 1 RAR, the taskforce was assigned its own area of operations and included conscripts who had been called up under the National Service Scheme, introduced in 1964. All nine battalions of RAR served in the taskforce at one time or another before it was withdrawn in 1971; at the height of Australian involvement it numbered some 8,500 troops. A third RAAF squadron (of Canberra jet bombers) was also committed in 1967, and destroyers of the Royal Australian Navy joined US patrols off the North Vietnamese coast. The Navy also contributed a clearance diving team, and a helicopter detachment that operated with the US Army from October 1967.”

Dave and James – It’s (still is) a Province – because Australia wanted a degree of autonomy in operations ( we were finally starting to learn?) and we deployed there and were responsable for keeping it as secure as possible – it was a good example of “winning hearts and minds” which has always been a hallmark ever since of Australian operations and I can say with some pride that we are still to this day welcome there.

Regards
John P

Just a note about those “official” figures James, local Cambridge researcher Richard Stowers has just released a superb book called ‘Bloody Gallipoli’. He has been through old records and found the official figures are totally wrong.

Good point Dave. I should have said I took the figures from ‘The Age’ Melbourne’s broadsheet newspaper. And we all know about newspapers, don’t we?

As for NZ and Australian losses compared to other countries – The big difference for the ANZACs at Gallipoli, and perhaps moreso for the Kiwis, was not the numbers lost compared with others, but this was our first ever such loss as a nation. Yes, NZ’ers were fighting in the South African war too, but as British troops, and in tiny numbers, with few casualties. In WWI it was a New Zealand army, the First New Zealand Expeditionary Force, made up of volunteer citizens, not army professionals.They were mostly people off the street, known in their town or district. The entire nation was rocked by the losses, and for the first time felt the impact of a war on its nationhood. The UK, France and India were used to war. I suppose Canada was too. NZ wasn’t.

And the same in almost every aspect for Australia, Dave.

I’m unsure if the Aussies see Anzac Day quite the same as we do, but for NZ it was a coming of age, when the country suddenly “grew up with a thuimp” on the world stage. We went from being a simple colony to a nation, overnight on the 25th of April 1915. That is the emphasis for this country. A coming of age, and ratehr a rude one at that.

I think in many ways the Australian view is the same. however for such an appaling lesson, we’ve been poor learners, and IMHO, quick to remember the lost and too slow to respect their memories by stopping and avoiding war since.

James, I have never heard of Phuoc Tuy – what country was that in? Another example of ANZAC co-operation was the recent peacekeeping in East Timor where the Kiwis were under Australian joint command. It may have been peace-keeping but both our countries lost troops in the warzone there.

Vietnam, I assume, Dave. And Australia and New Zealand have indeed often had PBI (poor bloody infantry) in the same mess since; however the point was also the re-use of the name ANZAC.

Oh, and you asked about other flowers used for commemoration, apart from poppies. Rosmary (though not a flower) is sometimes worn in Australia, for ANZAC day (“rosemary for rememberance”) rather than poppies, which are really for (what was the Haig Fund) November commemoration. Interestingly, the red flowers at Gallipoli were anemones, not poppies which were a Western Front feature.

Thanks for the response.

To
Nat H from Detroit
John S from Newport Beach
Phil R from Boise
and especially Duanne M from Flagstaff without whom I wouldn’t be here.

Rest in Peace and thanks

John

I thought this portion of a window in the local St Andrews Church, which is a CofE church here in Cambridge, NZ, is appropriate. It depicts NZ’s first WW1 battle, Gallipoli.

If you look closely all the soldiers have the same face, that of Brian Willis, who was the son of the Reverend Willis who was in charge of the church when the window was erected in 1929. Brian was from Cambridge and killed at Gallipoli.

The windo is huge, and has three panels. The second depicts a Kiwi soldier kneeling at the foot of a cross with Jesus on, praying. The third panel depicts NZ’s last battle in WWI. Le Quesoy – where the Kiwi troops saved the town from bombardment in 1918 by volunteering to scale the medievil walls and take it by force. They succeeded marvellously, in stark contrast to Gallipoli. Today Kiwis, especially from Cambridge, are treated like royalty in Le Quesnoy. There were Cambridge men at both battles, and Cambridge is twinned with Le Quesnoy in France.

I will try to get some better photos if anyone’s interested. I love the windows, though I’m not religious at all. The church also has war memorials and a WWII window added later.

Also a couple of photos of the church itself.