Are We Slowly Slipping Into World War?

Same answer as previous six. No!

Russian Jet downed by Turkish Fighter.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2485088/russian-jet-shot-down-world-war-3-fears-raised-as-turkey-reportedly-downs-russian-jet/
(although the aircraft shown is a US FA18).
Escallation?

Not too sure why his views seem to be given such credence, unless he is talking about Roman Catholicism and other parochial matters. As for the garbage he spouted about “climate change”……!!:rolleyes:

Interesting quote from the Pope.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29190890
I kind of agree with him. Not a world war in the traditional sense but a piece meal war thought by many countries, on many fronts.

To be quite honest, I take anything this individual comes out with, with a huge pinch of salt.

Nobody has the appetite for war, not against a country with any military might anyway.

Regarding the Russians. Is your enemy’s enemy your friend ?

The answer to the thread title is still – no!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34408120

Russia bomb one side (has naval bases on Sirian coast), the west bomb the other.
At which point do both sides `meet` ?

Except that there have been “piecemeal” conflicts before WW1, between the wars and after WW2. I cannot see anything we are witnessing now as being a “world war”. In fact I’m not sure if he he saying anything which hasn’t already been said by many others. And IS are strongly invoking the name of their god in pursuing their goal.

Interesting quote from the Pope.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29190890
I kind of agree with him. Not a world war in the traditional sense but a piece meal war thought by many countries, on many fronts.

Back to the Ukraine/Russian sanctions.

Could tensions over Ukraine hit space?

With the downing of flight MH17, tensions between Russia and the United States over Ukraine have reached a new high. New tougher sanctions have been put in place, targeting Russia’s finance, defence and energy sectors. But Russia may have found a way to hit back – and America’s space industry is its target.

When Neil Armstrong set foot on the lunar surface in 1969, it was the pivotal point in a space race that had lasted for more than a decade.
America had beaten the Soviets to the Moon.
It was a great moment of US national pride, but the two rivals soon realised they could achieve so much more by working together.
“I had no idea when I joined Nasa, wanting to be an astronaut, hoping to fly, that I would have anything to do with Russia,” says Mike Foale, the British-born Nasa astronaut.
But during his 26-year career with the US space agency, he worked extensively with Russian cosmonauts as the alliance between the two nations grew.
“Collaboration between any group, and of course countries, is far more profitable for everybody than reservation and competition and being antagonistic,” he explains.
“So, in the end, humans always win more if they co-operate.”
But today, the Americans don’t just collaborate with the Russians. They depend on them.
In 2011, the Atlantis Shuttle flew its last mission. Nasa’s space shuttle programme had come to an end.
Now, to get to the International Space Station (ISS) – a long-serving symbol of unity in space – the Americans have to catch a lift from the Russians on their Soyuz spacecraft, at a cost of more than $60 million a seat.
But as tensions grow over Ukraine, relations between the US and Russia are becoming ever more fraught.
Earlier this year, a leaked memo revealed that Nasa was suspending some of its ties with Russia as part of America’s ongoing sanctions, apart from work on the ISS.
Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin responded by suggesting the Americans send their astronauts into space using a trampoline.
If Russia put a stop to these space taxi rides, American astronauts would be grounded. But Dr Foale says the Russians would lose out, too.
“In the case of America and Russia building the ISS, America agreed to build all of the electronics and electric power systems, and Russia agreed to build all of the fuel systems. So, we’re joined together in this common endeavour and we both need each other critically,” he said.
But it’s not just Nasa that relies on Russian space hardware; it’s also critical for US security.
The Atlas V rockets that launch America’s defence and intelligence satellites are powered by engines – called RD-180s – that are bought from Russia.
In essence, America needs Russian technology to spy on Russia.
And the supply line is looking increasingly vulnerable.
“This has become a national security concern that we do launch almost all of our reconnaissance satellites on this particular type of rocket,” explains General Stephen Cheney, who runs the American Security Project, a Washington-based think-tank.
“We can’t put up those satellites reliably by ourselves right now, so if Russia said ‘we’re not giving you any more’, we would really have to scramble to find a replacement.
“But perhaps even more ironic is that we are providing the Russians with literally billions of dollars to their defence industry… and who knows what they’re using that money for.
“They might even be buying anti-aircraft missiles to supply to the rebels in the Ukraine with this money.”
The problem was recently highlighted during a hearing in the US Senate.
There are only 15 RD-180s left in America’s stockpile, and if new sales were halted, it is estimated that critical defence and intelligence satellite missions could be delayed by up to four years while America tries to build a replacement propulsion system.
The hostility has left the US and Russia searching for new friends.
America is turning towards home-grown commercial industry to bring space manufacturing back to US soil.
Russia, though, has been looking further afield. Its eye has been caught by a new player in space: China.
Dmitry Rogozin has said Russia might end its role on the ISS in 2020, and could turn instead to the East. He’s been holding talks in China to discuss deepening space cooperation between the two nations.
Sergei Khrushchev has a unique perspective on the current problems.
He’s the son of the former Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, and was a rocket scientist during the Cold War. Now, though, he lives in America.
“The scientific community have a special relationship, based not on the political confrontation, not ideology, but on the respect of your achievements,” he explains.
He says both sides have a lot to lose.
“I will be very sad if collaboration between Russia and United States, and Russia and the EU, fails. Because it is against Russian instincts, American instincts and European instincts,” he adds.
“Working here with the Americans, and Americans working with the Russian Academy of Science – I am good friends with them.
“And now with the results of the ambition of the simple-minded politicians, we have thrown everything in the garbage.”
Bill Barry, Nasa’s chief historian, is hopeful that Russia and the US will maintain their alliance in space.
“Of course the relationships between the US and Russia, and the Soviet Union before that, have had their ups and downs,” he says.
“But space cooperation has been one of the things we have both agreed on, that it is a good thing to do and a positive example of how we can collaborate on important things.
“It is a good scientific endeavour and I think both sides see it as an opportunity to find ways to work together.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28573788

Didn’t know that the US didn’t build it’s own rocket engines anymore, but then to hear that they come from Russia is quite a shock!

Quite – so we do blame both parties and their surrogates. And since neither will accept the other’s existence in peace then your prognosis is accurate. After all how many peace attempts have there been over the decades? Arabs and Jews both believe they have inalienable historical rights to the lands now forming the State of Israel. And so deep seated is that belief that it is unlikely to change in any of our lifetimes. Now were the annual £3 billion military aid from the US to be reduced or ended…………

Trying to blame either the Palestinians or the Israelis for the problems in Gazza is pointless.
They are both to blame and until `they` realise this there will never be peace.

They could have been playing cricket, hockey, beach volleyball… Does it matter?

Yes, it matters; because in an earlier post when I questioned how did we know they were playing football on the beach you responded by saying that the incident had happened right in front of the hotel occupied by the whole international press-corps so it had to be the truth! That demonstrates quite nicely the two points I was making…

…the media like to ‘spin’ stories and (or) people (even journalists) make mistakes.

The other reason it matters is because children playing soldiers with ‘sticks’ for guns are far more likely to be mistaken for terrorists than children playing football or beach volleyball.

Or we can go with your version: that the Israeli gunboat saw the children on the beach and even though they KNEW they were children (and KNEW that their ‘guns’ were sticks), and even though that KNEW there was no military target anywhere near them, they still decided to target the children directly, even when they were running away, right in front of the entire world press-corps…

…to which I ask my original question…..what possible reason would they do that for?

The ‘Arabs’ wield sticks as play guns? What would that look like through binoculars from an Israeli patrol-boat?

Binoculars? Hardly the ‘sophisticated’ targeting system’s sights…
But lets get this bit right: a group of kids, with sticks, on a beach, chasing each other around like kids do? Who points a gun at kids anyway?

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Oh yeah. Sorry…

Yes, the Israelis have sophisticated targeting systems; they can make their shells / bombs / rockets land pretty-much where they want to, but they are still operated by fallible human beings who sometimes see what they want to see or what they are expecting to see.

Children look different to adults; in the same way that you can distinguish between male and female pedestrians at a distance, for example, even without anything to give you their size you can distinguish between children closer to you and adults further away, even taking compression into account.

Of course, we know the boys were playing football right?

They could have been playing cricket, hockey, beach volleyball… Does it matter?

Who knows, but those boys were targeted; the site was, apparently, utterly devoid of anything that might be considered a target…

Soon they withdrew to a nearby beach and began playing a game called “Arabs and Jews,” said Araby Bakr, 11, another survivor.

Under the rules of the game, Araby said, older children designate a captain to lead each team and then choose up sides.

The “Arabs” wield sticks as play guns and try to catch the “Jews” and put them in a mock jail. The game has been played for years in the Palestinian territories.

“We follow each other, run after each other and shoot sometimes,” Araby said.

The ‘Arabs’ wield sticks as play guns? What would that look like through binoculars from an Israeli patrol-boat?

Yes, the Israelis have sophisticated targeting systems; they can make their shells / bombs / rockets land pretty-much where they want to, but they are still operated by fallible human beings who sometimes see what they want to see or what they are expecting to see.

Of course, we know the boys were playing football right?

Hi All,
Snafu, No worries matey.

Geoff.

Hi All,
Snafu I found this on Wiki – Russia’s first downing of civilian aircraft was in 1940.

Sorry – what I meant was more that this was much more impersonal than a fighter shooting down an airliner; in that sense it is just not the same. (Not forgetting all those other non combat aircraft – cargo flights, trainers and the like – shot down on the Berlin run in the early cold war.) It is not really like those Rhodesian airliners shot down towards the end of the Rhodesian conflict, since they would have known that they were regarded as targets.

Anyone want to start an historical list of civilian aircraft that have been shot down? Would make for interesting reading…

The boys were hit; whether they were deliberately targeted is debatable.

You believe they were the target of un-aimed artillery? You think the shell-fire was accidentally random?

An exercise? An exercise in what; turning the whole world’s opinion against Israel??? You’ll have to explain the logic of that one to me because it makes no sense whatsoever as a deliberate act; the only way it makes any sense is in the minds of those who are determined to make Israel the ‘bad guys’ for targeting innocents.

To be honest it was a tongue in cheek statement, since the reports from the witnessing media played upon the fact that there was nothing else there – just a beach with some children playing football, a scene that sounded to me like a possible opportunity to calibrate the gun sights.

The truth is that it was probably just an accident; collateral damage.

Have you not read the reports?

And while we are in search of ‘the truth’ how do we know there was not a legitimate target on the beach, how do we know these boys were just playing football? Says who? Their parents? Hamas?

For some reason the worlds collective media just so happened to be closeted in hotels close by…

TRANSCRIPT

AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday, an Israeli gunboat shelled a beach, killing four boys who were playing there. The boys were all between the ages of nine and 11 and from the same extended family. Seven other adults and children were wounded in the strike. The scene was witnessed by a number of international journalists, including France 24 correspondent Gallagher Fenwick.

GALLAGHER FENWICK: We witnessed the incident. The first strike occurred, and we went out onto our balcony. You have to understand that this happened right in front of the hotels on the Gaza beachfront where most of the international media are staying, so there were very many witnesses of this incident. As I mentioned, there was a first very loud strike that hit a structure that is right on the Gaza port. So, many people looking out onto there. And after that first strike happened, we saw four very young children running away from the point of impact on a completely empty beach, so very clearly visible from a distance. And that’s why—that’s when, excuse me, there was a second strike that obviously hit the other children, so leaving four children dead on that beach—a very shocking incident given that, again, these children were clearly simply playing around and were very, very clearly visible from a distance.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/17/horror_on_gaza_beach_new_york

Don’t you think that had there been anything like a missile launcher close by the press would have been slavering all over it like you lot around a UKIP manifesto?

I don’t know the truth of the matter but I doubt anybody would hold their hands up and say ‘it is a fair cop’, Israel killed the right people. So who do you believe in such circumstances?

I believe the journalists reports because a) they witnessed the event, and b) there were too many of them who saw what happened to bring any bias to bear.

In the media war there is every point in ‘making stuff up’; Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets into Israeli civilian areas, not exactly ‘targeting’ civilians, but clearly not able to guarantee that they are not targeting civilians (unless the rockets are not fired).

You can spend a few hours making stuff up only to find that you have wasted time and, since no one else can corroborate the story, it gets spiked – unless it is really sensational in which case you get herograms from your bosses and threats from the protagonists, who investigate your claims and find nothing in them then plaster their counter-claims all over the place, then your bosses look into your claims and, when they find out you made them up, drop you and leave you with such a bad reputation that no one trusts you, no one will employ you again.

Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets into Israel, yes. They have killed, to date, in this particular conflict, one Israeli. Their rockets (the ones that get past the anti missile defence grid) are just not accurate enough to target particular buildings, let alone individuals.
Israel has fired many hundreds of shells into The Lebanon (why is it The Lebanon?) and killed countless people: that is the point, isn’t it? They can fire and kill at will – they have the technology to pin point their targets accurately. And that accuracy is underlined by the fact that one of their shells landed on a group of kids on an empty beach playing football, witnessed by the worlds press from the safety of their hotels.

The point is perception; there maybe lots of genuine stuff going on but the important thing (for either side) is to make sure the world’s media reports what you want the world to hear.

So…those kids…were..actually there…for the press…to witness…being killed? Hamas and the Israeli navy had this little arrangement, a tableau to be played out for the journalists?
Crazy.
Just crazy.

‘Israeli shells’ landing on a hospital during a news interview with a doctor makes an irresistible story! You can’t see artillery shells coming (you may be able to see something, like a ship, that is firing) and you can’t tell where exploding shells came from (or even be sure that explosions are ‘shells’) but two and two MUST equal four, right?

Just saying what they said. But Regev was not unaware of the incident – he was trying to redirect his answers to the other hospital where there had been outgoing firing and therefore a legitimate target – but he was floundering magnificently.

As I commented earlier media reporting in the Middle East conflict is rarely objective, so the accuracy of any reports should be taken lightly.

Yes, Charlie, you did.
But an incident like the children on the beach happening in front of many reporters like it did… Do you really think they are going to ignore all the military hardware laying about on the sand?
And, strangely, the hospital that was being fired at…nobody said it was hit (gone back and re-watched the video) just that a designated and recognised hospital was fired at, without reason. Surely it would be the duty of a lying reporter to write that hundreds were killed – no, murdered, by those incoming Israeli shells?
Charlie, the story is about the fact that Israel can fire with pin-point accuracy; the tragedy is that only when they want to do they do so.

Hi All,
Snafu I found this on Wiki – Russia’s first downing of civilian aircraft was in 1940.

Kaleva OH-ALL

Main article: Kaleva (airplane)

Junkers Ju 52-3/mge “Kaleva” OH-ALL was a civilian transport and passenger plane operated by the Finnish carrier Aero O/Y, shot down by two Soviet Ilyushin DB-3 bombers on June 14, 1940, while en route from Tallinn, Estonia, to Helsinki, Finland.[1] This occurred during the Interim Peace between Finland and the Soviet Union, three months after the end of the Winter War, and a year before the Continuation War began. A few minutes after taking off in Tallinn, Kaleva was intercepted by two Soviet Ilyushin DB-3T torpedo bombers. The bombers opened fire with their machine guns and badly damaged Kaleva, causing it to ditch in water a few kilometers northeast of Keri lighthouse. All 9 passengers and crew members on board were killed.[2]

I was merely pointing to the obvious suspects that could possibly be involved being as all parties as they are all claiming to be innocent. Also I found this article may interest you about what I was meaning about their history. http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-9th-flight-shot-down/

Geoff.

As I commented earlier media reporting in the Middle East conflict is rarely objective, so the accuracy of any reports should be taken lightly.