Argentinian Klemm L20 Hhistory

After doing a bit of simple research myself, all I’ve been able to confirm that according to here this Aeronmarine-Klemm L20 (S/No.53) was indeed registered NC4921… so do any of our state-side members have any recommendations as to where I could find out any details on its time in the US and most especially from its time in Germany before export to the US…?

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

You should be able to order a CD of the aircraft records from faa.gov , although some of the older records haven’t been digitized yet, but you may be able to get hard copies. Don’t use “NC”, they only recognise “N”

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/copies_aircraft_records/

–

Many thanks… I investigate further 🙂

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

LV-QDA
Was just informed, that the Klemm L20 I B (Daimler) s/n 53 was shipped from Texas to Argentina in 1937.
She is stored in bits and pieces in worst condition – but the owner wants to start a rebuilding/restoring project.

I obtained the three FAA records in 2003 and can confirm a few things. All three were Klemm built in Germany with Mercedes engines.

Manf. No. 33 – Registered as #4825 – Owner: George Kern – Destroyed May 1928 – #4825 canceled Dec. 19, 1928.
Manf. No. 52 – Registered as #4922 – Owner: Hanns Klemm – No Further info – #4922 canceled July 8, 1930
Manf. No. 53 – Registered as #4921 – Owner: Willibald Seypelt – Destroyed November 1928 – #4921 canceled Dec. 1 1928.

This leads me to believe the one in Argentina is actually No. 52, #4922. Does anybody have further info on this? Has a restoration project been started?

The number “5” I took from the Boxman post (# 9).
I said similar statement – the aircraft c/n 53, most probably, has not German registration during it’s German “life”.
Anyway, this is great find, dear Wieesso ! You confirmed the initial assumptions with facts. Now, I think, the LV-QDA history is maximally clear.

Thanks Flyer!

1) Klemm came to the USA April 2nd 1928. (No mention of “five planes” that he brought with him!)

The number “5” I took from the Boxman post (# 9).

Only c/n 33 was registered in Germany (D-919) before shipping to the USA

I said similar statement – the aircraft c/n 53, most probably, has not German registration during it’s German “life”.
Anyway, this is great find, dear Wieesso ! You confirmed the initial assumptions with facts. Now, I think, the LV-QDA history is maximally clear.

ok, the NY Times pubished an article April 3, 1928:
“Hanns Klemm, designer and builder of small planes, arrived yesterday from Bremen on the North German Lloyd liner Dresden….Three of the Klemm planes, which have a wing spread of forty-three feet and are equipped with a 20-horsepower motor, are already in the country. Kern brought them with him when he arrived several weeks ago. They are to be used for demonstration.”
Two points:
1) Klemm came to the USA April 2nd 1928. (No mention of “five planes” that he brought with him!)
2) Kern imported three planes,
c/n 33, later registered NC4825 (it’s the plane he bought in Germany and which he named “Yankee Doodle”)
c/n 52, later registered NC4922 (it’s the plane that Charles Lindbergh made a test flight with)
c/n 53, later registered NC4921 (it’s the plane with which the thread started!)
Only c/n 33 was registered in Germany (D-919) before shipping to the USA

Also C. Lindberg with Klemm aircraft are on photo here (see the bottom of page):

http://dissenttheblog.blogspot.ru/2010/08/from-archives_18.html

Wieesso wrote:

“In the autumn of 1927 Hanns Klemm was visited by two Americans , George Kern and Willibald Seypelt who bought each a L20.”

Even in this case these American gentlemen could take 2 factory-fresh Klemm aircrafts directly from the production line, having the permission from Herr Klemm; and those planes could have the serial numbers only. Immediately after the purchase of aeroplanes, these men “began a tour of Europe”, which ended in the end of January 1928. And after this they could go to America immediately, and their planes could not have any German registrations during all this period.
And in March of 1928 H. Klemm had the business trip to America with other 5 examples of his plane.
I seem, this version looks plausible.

From the Popular Science Aug. 1928 magazine, Charles Lindbergh testing a Klemm L20 c/n 52 reg no 4922 (FAA Certificate Issue Date 04/10/1928 – Cancel Date 07/08/1930)
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Boxman – I agree to your last sentence in post #9

https://hannsklemm.wordpress.com/liezensen/aeromarine-klemm/
The three photos of Klemm, Kern and Seypelt were shot in Stuttgart, showing the L20 D-919 “Yankee Doodle”
The first sentence above the photos translated: “In the autumn of 1927 Hanns Klemm was visited by two Americans , George Kern and Willibald Seypelt who bought each a L20.”
For further research it would be helpful to get the complete file of NC4921 from FAA!

edit 1:
Willibald Seypelt was owner of L20 c/n 53 reg 4921 – certificate canceled December 1st 1928
George Kern was owner of L20 c/n 33 reg 4825 – certificate canceled December 9th 1928

edit 2:
“On October 21, 1927, Albert Willibald Seypelt (d.1966) and George William Kern began a tour of Europe in a lightweight Klemm-Daimler L-20 dubbed the ‘Yankee Doodle.’ Leaving from Stuttgart, Germany, the duo travelled over 6,000 miles visiting Belgium, France, Italy and Austria before returing to Stuttgart on January 20, 1928.”
http://siris-archives.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=full=3100001~!228899!0

edit 3:
AERONAUTICS: Air Flivvers
Monday, Mar. 26, 1928
“Having toured 5,000 miles of Europe in his “vest-pocket airplane,” the Yankee Doodle, George Kern Jr., son of a meatpacker, retired, returned to the U. S. last fortnight to show the incredulous an air flivver which weighs only 575 pounds, costs $2,100, flies for three cents a mile, crosses the Alps.
It was as he was flying across Europe in a commercial airliner recently, that Tourist Kern met, as fellow-passenger, Willibald Seypelt, German flier during the War. Enthusiastically, Pilot Seypelt told the U. S. tourist of a tiny plane made in Stuttgart, after the…”http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787034,00.html
“Tourist Kern, enthusiastic, wrote a check; in two and one-half hours of instruction he became Flier Kern. With Pilot Seypelt they set out over Europe, over nine different countries, 5,000 miles Total expenditures for gas, oil, etc.: $180. In the U. S., where gasoline and oil are cheaper, the cost would have been no more than one cent a mile.”http://www.wordola.com/wusage/seypelt/all.html

All extremely interesting and quite the mystery.

Without any knowlege of how the Klemm / Daimler / Aeromarine relationship worked, could it be possible that Klemm (Daimler-Klemm) manufactured the airframe and engine in Germany and then sent them on to Aeromarine as a knock-down kit for assembly and sale in the US?

Then there’s this information at Aerofiles:
http://www.aerofiles.com/_aeromar.html

L-20 (Boland ) 1928 = 2pOlwM; 20hp Mercedes; span: 38’0″ v: 80/66/20. Hans Klemm (Germany), from his 1923 design, Klemm-Daimler L.20 (aka D-M-G L.20). All-wood construction, part fabric-covered wing. Pivoting wingtips for ailerons, later replaced by conventional ailerons. POP: 1 for design evaluation [867W]. Others registered under the Klemm title [eg: 4919, 4920], with Mercedes motors, are probably German imports of an earlier date.

Interestinger and interestinger. . .

EDIT: OK, looking into this further, I think we may have or be closer to an answer! I cannot read German but thanks to the wonder that is Google Translate, it would seem that five (5) L20s were shipped to the United States on board the SS Dresden with Hanns Klemm in March 1928. Further, according to the site, it was planned that production of the first US-manufactured Aeromarine-Klemm aircraft was not commence until at least January 1929.

As you can see from the SDASM photos and the handwritten captions, the Klemm in the photos was here in the United States at least as early as July 1928 – after Hanns Klemm arrived in the US on SS Dresden in March of that year, and before the first licensed-built Aeromarine-Klemm aircraft was completed (at the earliest!) in January 1929.

So, it would seem that that 4921 was indeed German-built!!!

Here is the translation of the German-language Klemm site into English – so the language/spelling may be a bit awkward/stilted:
https://hannsklemm.wordpress.com/liezensen/aeromarine-klemm/

In March 1928 Hanns Klemm traveled with the “Dresden” with five L20 in the luggage across the pond.
. . .

In June 1928, the company Aeromarine announced the produce terminal Klemm Daimler aircraft at its factory in Keyport. Inglis Uppercu, the president of the company founded a new company, “Aeromarine Klemm Corporation” on 01 July 1928.

Of the 1,000 aircraft piece should be produced and cost under $ 3,000. The company got for the aircraft production rights in the United States. In December 1928, the new terminal was exhibited at the “International Civil Exhibition” in Chicago.

The first machine sold went to the Flight Club Pegasians in New York. Production should begin in January 1929 with the production of a machine / day. The only part that would not be produced in the factory, was the engine. Instead of the German 20 PS engine, the Company decided to import the 40 hp Salmson motor of France and installed. During the exhibition, to $3,500 to 4,000 per aircraft.

The shareholders of the new company decided to buy on December 8, 1928 230 acres of land and buildings of the Aeromarine Plane and Motor Company. Between 1,000 and 1,200 people were estimated for the production of the new aircraft. In February 1929, two Klemm on the New York Aviation Show has been exhibited in Grand Central Palace. The two models were the Mohawk, and the Pinto.

It would appear, as the information at Aerofiles and the German-language Klemm site suggests, that NC4921 was one of the five Klemm L20 aircraft that were imported to the United States aboard SS Dresden when Hanns Klemm came over to the US to negotiate a license agreement to produce his aircraft here in March 1928.

Aeromarine-Klemm AKL-25A vs Daimler Klemm L20

Quite irritating, indeed!

Between 1924 and 1927 Daimler built three badges of Klemm L20 (L20-A1, L20-B1, L20-C1)
The serial number 53 was a L20-B1 type built in 1924.
It was first registered in the USA with NC4921.
According to FAA the certificate was canceled December 1st 1928. Owner was a Mr. Willibald Seypelt.
As I already mentioned in post #5 it was shipped from Texas to Argentina and later registered LV-QDA
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Martin

The type data is as follows:
Klemm L20 I B (Daimler)
Serial number 53
Engine Mercedes Benz F 7502 – S/N 66439
Registration USA 4921 – serial number USA
Registration Argentina : LV-QDA serial number Argentina 325

Well, men, according to Argentinean data, this plane was Aeromarine-Klemm AKL-25A, serial number 53, Argentinean civil registration R-325 (later LV-QDA). It was owned by H. A. Schuster. The Argentinean registration was given 11.12.36 and cancelled 22.11.51. Please, note – this was not simply Klemm, but Aeromarine – Klemm ! Thus, this aircraft had not any “German stage of history”, because of it was made in the USA initially. Besides, I could not find any traces of German-made Klemm with serial number 53. I have found the Klemm aircrafts with the numbers 54, 56, 57, etc – but not 53.
So, my opinion is – this was fully US-built aircraft.

I have been going through the San Diego Air & Space Museum’s (SDASM) collection of photos on Flickr and have come across photos of the Klemm (4921 / C4921 / NC4921) from 1928 in the Fred Alvin Jones Album Collection. I hope these photos are helpful (larger versions of these photos are available through the links above the photos):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/13915208213/
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/13915149395/
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/13915579754/
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