Argosy Website

p01: why couldn’t we buy the Hercules in 1959. Truly money, per JB. Until 1958 access to $ was severely constrained (UK citizens were not given freedom to buy any amount of $ until 1979!) Each BOAC order had to be demonstrated as self-financing (Bring Over American Currency). 1949-54 UK enjoyed MDAP/MSP (Sabres, Neptunes &tc, &tc), but after that we needed cash $. FAA did persuade Treasury that Sidewinder was cheaper/better than Firestreak in salty air…else, hard now to recall any US kit in UK Forces, bought 1955-64 (Sioux came via Agusta). RAF tried hard for C-130E, not AW.660, RR/Bristol scheming licenced Tyne/T.222. Treasury wanted £-purchases; MoA’s job was industry sponsorship; HSAL had initiated AW.650 in 1958 without Launch Aid and such enterprise was laudable. Early-1959 MoA/A.M faced a fate worse than death: the NBMR Transport that became Nord/VFW C.160 Transall. Even no load wheelbarrow was better than a EuroCamel, so we said we could not wait, as Beverley was ludicrous, Hastings decrepit.

In 1964 RN persuaded (Tory) Ministers that Strike carriers could only operate Spey/F-4 (J79 assessed as too slow in the bolter case), 52 ordered for cash on an East of Suez, Trade Protection ticket, 27/2/64. (Labour) Ministers presented in December,1964 that UK could not additionally fund renewal of MEAF/FEAF; US wanted UK there (Vietnam would have been even better), so LBJ offered a fixed price/credit package: enter 66 C-130K and >40 years of joy unconfined.

Thanks for the pics
Thought I was imagining things for a minute looks like 442 was the runner pretty sure I saw it with all 4 running

Regards

Jon

There were 2 Argosies at Halton in 1987; XR140 and XP442

Hi there
Was at Halton in 1988 and the aircraftwas still intact and at least one engine was occasionally run by the engine type people.

Regards

Jon

Hi Guys
Should be an easy one for you.
What happened to the Argosy at Halton when I was in training 80’s
Cheers Jon

That would be XP409 – see my thread a while ago

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41829&highlight=Argosy+Halton+nail

Roger Smith

Halton

Hi Guys
Should be an easy one for you.
What happened to the Argosy at Halton when I was in training 80’s

Cheers

Jon

Some news about XN819’s cockpit here!

New publication!

On the topic of Argosys…

According to
http://www.aviationmegastore.com/armstrong-withworth-argosy-expected-end-of-may-ws-71-hall-park-ws-71-ww2-us-aircraft/product/?shopid=LM4a044252a01b764df69ea72c5f&action=prodinfo&parent_id=1&art=86109 a 68-page booklet covering this type will be available in Holland towards the end of May.
So the UK will be about one or two weeks earlier ! :diablo:

More information taken from this page of the publisher:
http://www.warpaint-books.com/html/titles.htm

Armstrong Whitworth A.W.650/660 ARGOSY
Price: £10.50

No. 71 in the Warpaint series

The original specification for the aircraft that ultimately resulted in the Argosy started as a compromise between a civilian freighter and a military general purpose transport aircraft. When the civilian version did not attract sufficient attention from operators who were caught up between cheaper second-hand piston-engined freighters and the new pure jets then entering service, it was the Royal Air Force that gave a fresh lease of life to this turboprop aircraft when it was adopted as its standard tactical transport aircraft. Though its achievements have remained largely unsung, the Argosy gave loyal service in the United Kingdom as well as in the Near, Middle and Far East, acquitting itself with honour, even when operating in zones that proved inaccessible to other aircraft. This new Warpaint title gives an insight into all this, as well as details of operators and colour schemes relating to this subject which for the most part has remained neglected.

Available from leading stockists world wide or by direct mail from Warpaint Books. Ordering information and addresses on the last page.

Am I correct in thinking that there aren’t that many dedicated publications on the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy ?

That does make some sense, and we we had plenty of places to stage through, but conversely you would think that the RAF wanted the Hercules because of the empire?
As good as the Hastings was it was well behind the turbo-prop, rear loading ramp and pressurised C-130.

Very backward when you consider that the RAAF had bought them that early.

We sold Argosys’ to the Americans, and we didn’t buy the Hercules from them – just dosen’t sound right!

One thing though AK, and one I could never understand, why couldn’t we buy the Hecules in 1959, 10 years before we did get them?

I’m guessing money.
The C-130 was available.
Australia was the first Hercules export customer in December of 1958.

It seems to me the RAF didn’t place a huge emphasis on transports* as seen by using the Hastings for so long and delaying the Hercules & Belfast purchases. Not that the Hastings was a bad plane, but a tailwheel transport without a roll-on-roll-off capacity does seem a bit primative by the late 50s. Likewise the Valetta/Varsity has a spar going trough the cabin…that’s even a bit retro from the Dakota.

*Perhaps they felt they didn’t need to. With the Empire still fairly intact, perhaps they felt that they had enough sea-maintained supply lines and ports that most supplies could be sent by ship. Then, smaller transports (Argosys, Daks, Twin Pins, etc.) like would disburse supplies within the theater.
Make sense? Just a guess on my part.

alertken, That’s about as far from what ACTUALLY happened with the Argosy as it is possible to get….

Enobarbus, I would take AKs (correct by me) version over yours. You don’t even give your views to the points raised in AKs post.
I would say the Argosy retirement from Transport Command was alot more to do with receiving the far superior and capable Hercules than withdrawal of east of Suez, the type just wasn’t needed any more in that role.
The Hercules was capable of operating to anywhere from the UK.
Youy say people mention it wrongly as being in the communications role, but that you don’t think it was. That is a little pedantic some people would lump the VIP and calibration roles in together and handily call it ‘communication’, some might say that it was used in those roles because it was simply available and a slow steady platform.

It was a useful transport between the Valletta and Hercules, and it shouldn’t be taken away from it that it performed a good job for a while. Also the first in RAF service with the now excepted rear ramp for far more simple loading and air dropping.

One thing though AK, and one I could never understand, why couldn’t we buy the Hecules in 1959, 10 years before we did get them?

XP440

Robin Walker has added to ABPIC

http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=XP440&u=reg

alertken,

That’s about as far from what ACTUALLY happened with the Argosy as it is possible to get……….

It was always intended to be a short range medium lift tactical transport.

The reason that it was retired from service was due to the Government withdrawal from east of Suez, hence 215 folding up not long after the withdrawal was announced and 105 following on the pull out from Aden. The UK based force went in 1970 and 1971 as by then there was a surplus of transport assets as the Hercules and Andover fleet was withdrawn to the UK.

Had there been no withdrawal from East of Suez then the RAF would have continued with the Argosy, Andover and Hercules.

The Argosy didn’t survive as a transport in the UK until 1977 as someone claimed, nor was it used as a communications aircraft.

It retired from the transport world when the last Benson based squadron disbanded in 1971. 70 Sqn in Cyprus retained 1 or 2 for VIP and SAR use for a few years after that but it’s only real use post 1972 was as an airfield calibration platform with 115 Sqn who used 9 aircraft (Argosy E1) until 1976 when they were replaced by surplus Andovers.

The sirplus Argosy fleet was to be used as a Varsity navigation/Air Eng and AEO trainer in the guise of the T2 and 14 were to be issued to 6 FTS but this was cancelled by the 1974/5 defence cuts.

The No-Load Wheelbarrow…

Ken of the Alert,

Thy message has now bounded across the vast spaces of the Earth and has been received in my rams horns. Verily it is truth ! …..

You’re dead right, she couldn’t carry much more than a matchbox at full fuel but that was what was appealing about the whistling beast, you “had” to get out and stretch your legs after a few hours.

Many were the moans of former Argosy crew who were posted onto the Hercules which toils for hour upon boring hour and only weights out when carrying steel helmets ! I heard amazing feats of endurance like 14 hours, U.K. to Muharraq, Ugh ! That would have been a three day tour of the Mediterranean, with nightstops at Malta, Cyprus and and a refuel and possible nightstop in Tehran before arriving in the Land of Sand….

Plus when the beast did falter and spit the dummy, it could be “big-time”… I had a wonderful 15 day Caribbean Trainer with about three days in Trinidad and and another three or four in Barbados due to a rapidly cycling hydraulic system. The Herc crew that came to rescue us in Barbados even bought a round of beers in gratitude ! So the No-Load Wheelbarrow did reward us for our patience !

RPM, Fuel Flow, TGT…
www.electranewbritain.com

No, RAF didn’t want AW660…but they wanted Transall even less. Herc was not attainable in 1959; anything was better than Beverley; so Argosy it was. When Ministers decided to dump the V/STOL-nonsense of HS681, for Hercs on tick, RAF slipped in some more, to be rid of no-load wheelbarrow. Howzat, RPM?

Here’s one of XP410

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=XP410

Thanks, I missed that one. One to go XP440.

XP410

Here’s one of XP410

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=XP410

Alertken…Thou art verily of the brains trust…

Ken of the Alert,

Thou dost speak in riddles, master…along the line of a Mandarin in high pitch or a hydraulic pump loaded with air…..

Minehead hast alas forever been of the disdain of thy three letter words known as “acronyms” which appear on my white papyrus and mine usage of these dreaded letters hast been as the number of water holes in a desert or camel twitch at sunset.

As sands also pass through mine hands I am also at a loss to retain numbers within mine cranium so I have a double difficulty plus as a result of toilage on the Argosy thy words broadcast from thine abode hast not the power to be in receipt by mine ears for I am deaf.

However, the Gods have been fruitful and have delivered two devices donated by our Gracious Prime Minister, the effervescent Kevin Rude who has gifted some rams horns which I am to adorn close to mine ears. If I had been adorned with said rams horns circa 1967, I might hence have heard fully what the Greek Prince said to mine ears when he told me: “Get thee hence off mine helicopter…” as some of his spiel was lost as I willingly departed from the arrogant eloquence….and delivered a two fingered salute to the omnipotent presence as he departed Vacuum House in Singapore…..

So therefore, wouldst thou kindly repeat thyself so as this encumbered brain can reap thine intended message…

Salute en beacoup !

RPM. Fuel Flow, TGT…
www.electranewbritain.com

Did the RAF want the Argosy?

After Hastings in Malaya and C-119 in Korea, US/RAF/France decided they wanted a Fat Albert box. France had copied as Noratlas; YC-130 flew 23/8/54: we now know that it and T56 became benchmark, but in 1955 only C-130A/B were on offer – blind, 3-blades, little grunt. RAAF took that; RAF could not be funded for a $ type, so issued OR323. HSAL started a ro-ro scheme, ordered long-lead material for 10, leant on RR to upgrunt Dart, and declared use of Shackleton wing, all for credible early delivery to match the Britannia “base” of Bristol T.195. All was suspended with France’s acquiescence in FRG entry to NATO. Part of the price was re-invention of $-subsidy as MWDP, which funded NATO Basic Military Requirements intended to initiate an FRG Aero industry and to keep France happy. UK hoped for much, so joined in all NBMRs, inc. the CTOL and the STOL transports. FRG’s interim was Noratlas. HSAL’s scheme was given life-support with Launch Aid disguised as an “order” by BEAC for 3 Argosy 100s. By early-1959 it looked distressingly as if the CTOL winner would be a twin-Tyne, Franco-German apology-for-C-130B. UK advised NATO that our East of Suez needs were distinctive and urgent – Beverley being ludicrous, that we could not wait for a collaborative camel, so we would do solo AW660.

What then happened was that C-160 proved not to be/Argosy to be a camel, C-130E to be luscious, impending C-130H to be superb. Firstly Bristol, as T.222, then Lockheed schemed Tyne-C-130H. In late-64, as Healey negotiated a credit, fixed price/delivery US equipment package, RR had less interest in Tyne C-130 than in Spey/F-4M and F-111K. 48 C-130K were bought May,65, instead of HS681 to replace Hastings/Beverley, 18 more January,1966 to replace loadless Andover and Argosy.

(Riddle: USAF’s DEW-line support task was presented as uniquely-served by ro-ro. Maybe that order was in the context of the 1964 UK package).

Thanks for your response newforest.

The first link you quoted seems to want payment for his images, which of course he is entitled to do.

Yes, that is correct. I think they are obtainable through the Brooklands Museum but if it was the last photo you wanted, you would pay wouldn’t you?:D