Arleigh Burke to Atago to Sejong the Great

That sounds like ships comparable to the Norwegian Nansen class Aegis Frigates.

Better probably, at least with more firepower (more VLUs plus not just ESSM but also SM2). Though AEGIS version KDII might use SPY-1K rather than SPY-1D antennea

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/205_53441.html

This is from October…

“The Navy plans to launch six 5,600-ton “mini-Aegis” destroyers between 2019 and 2026 in an effort to help facilitate coastal and blue-water operations, the service said Tuesday.

The medium-sized KDX-IIA destroyers equipped with SPY radar and close-in weapon systems will be a core part of the Navy’s strategic mobile fleet led by 7,600-ton KDX-III destroyers, it said.

“Given the need for overseas deployment, combined forces training and regular maintenance, we need more destroyers,” Rep. Kim Jang-soo of the governing Grand National Party said. “It’s more urgent and effective to build three more KDX-II-class ships if the cost is the same as building a 1-trillion-won KDX-III destroyer.”

Hmmm… The KDX-II’s are going to be outfitted with Aegis… This will be interesting…

That sounds like ships comparable to the Norwegian Nansen class Aegis Frigates.

Burkes, Sejong, etc…

are the built to milspec?

Years ago i heard that the Kongo’s were “built to mercantile standards”. I LOT of people (especially CONUS-side) it seems castigated the decision to not build to a mil-spec. I wonder if it were for production costs or polical cost. Imagine if Japan built the things to tougher mil stds. All kinds of people would be up in arms, so to speak. By building to merchant/commercial specs it might have been a way to diffuse and defuse concerns in the region. Besides, in the past 10 or so years, the USN has been FORCED to cut costs, and it, too, is working with ABS in an efforts to combine the rigorous mil demands with design-for-production techniques to not only drive down cost but also to enhance quality builds. What good, i dare ask, is Mil-Spec in a USN ship if Bath and Grumman and others have post-delivery work money because somebody (by intent or mistake) cut corners? Anyway, mercantile or Mil-Spec stds, ships of cruiser size and those over 375′ long might survive one, or at most, two warshots with self-ambulatory crew able to abandon ship. But, if you KNOW you are firing a warshot at a very tough, survivable ship such as a Burke, and maybe even the Atagos or Sejongs, if you have the opportunity from an undisclosed position to shoot, retire, and record the event, you’ll likely pincer-fire 3 shots, maybe one straight, after firing two from differing positions at variable speeds. With good timing, and poor escape routes, probably ever the Burkes would be rattled badly if not directly hit. Sinking is not always necessary. Severe damage sometimes is enough: cripple the ship and wound the crew…

If you were to dig around in the late 90s and early 2000s, you could find all SORTS OF ship-alts issued due to poor design, rust build-up, failing structural components. Even just a few short years ago, some of the Burkes had their top speed reduced to something like 26 knots MAX because of bad design or inferior material/steel work in one of the forward bulkheads. It had to be redesigned for all the subsequent (not-yet-built) hulls. Yet, LNG, container ships and many others with far more mass and hydrostatic stresses than anything less than a CVN have yet to just break up and sink. These were built to mercantile standards.

Aside/very personal comment…

I have not been aboard any Aegis ship, but the USN seems to have wasted several chances to build a Burke Flight III that has more spacious hangar space and that didn’t straddle the VLS. The Atagos are far more impressive visually, more menacing/don’t-mess-with-me appearance. But, yes, i realize that the USN was aiming for several things, among them being commonality in support, training, and operation. Also, cost containment. And, i suspect, any Super Burkes built too soon before the DDG-1000/CG-21 might have prematurely caused “damage” to those programs’ funding and interest/support. Now, with the economy as it is, the USN will be getting more flight IIIs, but maybe a flight-III.5 or IV might be interesting.

The Sejong Dae Hwang class, i understand is somewhere betwen 1.5 to 3x stealthier due to numerous little enhancements topside. (Whether that claim applies only to the Flight I Burkes, or the IIs or even the IIIs i don’t know.) There is even a huge starboard-side logistics hatch (look closely at the starboard-angle, pierside shot — zoom in on the hull near the fwd superstructure just above the waterline….)

http://www.jeffhead.com/aegisvesselsoftheworld/sejong.htm

(or, if shipping green water is not a concern (yes, i imagine there is a cofferdam with dewatering pumps if this thing is meant to be opened at sea), it might work for side-deployment/recovery of special forces, but that’s just a guess on my part…).

Otherwise, i personally strongly wish the Koreans de-Burked their ships to show some locale-based naval aesthetics. After all, DSME and Hyundai (hyoon-day, not hun-dai) are some of the most respected designers/builders and i wish they had a bit more input. Hopefully, if there is a follow-on/successor, it bulks-up. Maybe that’ll motivate the USN to “Bulk-up the Burkes” without too much cost and without going to DDG-1000 or ADF designs?

“Mini Aegis” for SKOR…

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/205_53441.html

This is from October…

“The Navy plans to launch six 5,600-ton “mini-Aegis” destroyers between 2019 and 2026 in an effort to help facilitate coastal and blue-water operations, the service said Tuesday.

The medium-sized KDX-IIA destroyers equipped with SPY radar and close-in weapon systems will be a core part of the Navy’s strategic mobile fleet led by 7,600-ton KDX-III destroyers, it said.

“Given the need for overseas deployment, combined forces training and regular maintenance, we need more destroyers,” Rep. Kim Jang-soo of the governing Grand National Party said. “It’s more urgent and effective to build three more KDX-II-class ships if the cost is the same as building a 1-trillion-won KDX-III destroyer.”

Hmmm… The KDX-II’s are going to be outfitted with Aegis… This will be interesting…

Looks like the Koreans and Japanese were smarter and kept a CIWS too. RAM or Phalanx while the Burkes ditched their’s. Yeah, I know, they supposedly got ESSM but I’d still have preferred they kept the two Phalanx.

The Flight IIA Burkes are getting Phalanx retrofitted on them.

Looks like the Koreans and Japanese were smarter and kept a CIWS too. RAM or Phalanx while the Burkes ditched their’s. Yeah, I know, they supposedly got ESSM but I’d still have preferred they kept the two Phalanx.

In the case of South Korea: 1x Goalkeeper + 1x RAM
In the case of Japan: 2x Phalanx

Looks like the Koreans and Japanese were smarter and kept a CIWS too. RAM or Phalanx while the Burkes ditched their’s. Yeah, I know, they supposedly got ESSM but I’d still have preferred they kept the two Phalanx.

are the built to milspec?

The main reason for Kongo and Atago to have larger superstructure is actually for extra space for flag ship equipment. In the US the Arleigh Burke are “work horse” where in Japan the Aegis ships are capital ships.

Do they have the same drive trains and power plants?

From post 2 above it appears the LM 2500 is standard throughout.

Do they have the same drive trains and power plants? Im really digging the Atago’s Mast

It would be interesting, why the Kongo and Atago class have such high superstructures. They are probably two decks higher compared to the Arleigh Burke class.

Since the Japanese and Korean destroyers are wider than the Burke class, they probably have the stability to raise the AEGIS arrays to increase the radar horizon.

Radars are placed higher, giving a longer detection distance and larger engagement envelope against sea skimming missiles.

It would have been also possible to get the same advantage using a mast-like structure similar to the Spanish Álvaro de Bazán class – which otherwise has a low superstructure. Ok, the Japanese solution has this advantage plus the advantage of a bridge with good visibility (if this really important today) plus higher positions of other sensors, fire control radars (SPG-62) etc.

Is their any information about how the greater internal space in the hull and superstructure is used in the Japanese ships?

It would be interesting, why the Kongo and Atago class have such high superstructures. They are probably two decks higher compared to the Arleigh Burke class.

Radars are placed higher, giving a longer detection distance and larger engagement envelope against sea skimming missiles.

so they are heavier. Are the internal layouts similar?

There are even clear differences in their external layout, e.g. the position of the hangar (if present), the position of the VLS, the position of the boats etc. The position of the VLS is exchanged in Atago compared to Kongo and Arleigh Burke. Atago has the 64 cell launcher forward and the 32 cell launcher aft high in the superstructure. Therefore the forecastle of the Atago looks also different compared to Kongo.

The Sejong the Great has two 64 cell VLS – therefore a much higher capacity compared with the other classes.

The Arleigh Burke Flight IIA and the Sejong the Great have place for two helicopters, the Atago only for one.

The hangars and VLS space and position alone results in huge internal differences.

It would be interesting, why the Kongo and Atago class have such high superstructures. They are probably two decks higher compared to the Arleigh Burke class.

so they are heavier. Are the internal layouts similar?

When you see the general characteristics of each class of ships you can provided a many or littel difference between the ships.

The Kongō class of guided missile destroyers serves as the core ship of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF)’s Escort Flotillas. They are a modification of the United States Navy’s Arleigh Burke class (Flight I).

General characteristics
Class and type: Kongō class guided missile destroyer
Displacement: 7500 tons standard
9500 tons full load
Length: 528.2 ft (161 m)
Beam: 68.9 ft (21 m)
Draft: 20.3 ft (6.2 m)
Propulsion: 4 Ishikawajima Harima/General Electric LM2500-30 gas turbines;
two shafts,
100,000 shaft horsepower (75 MW)
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h)
Range: 4,500 nautical miles at 20 knots
(8,334 km at 37 km/h)
Complement: 300
Armament: • RGM-84 Harpoon SSM
• SM-2MR Standard SAM (29 cells at the bow, 61 cell at the aft)
• RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROC
• 1 x 5 inch (127 mm) / 54 caliber Oto-Breda Compact Gun
• 2 x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 x Type 68 triple torpedo tubes (6 x Mk-46 or Type 73 torpedoes)
Aircraft carried: Room for a helicopter to land on the rear deck, but no support equipment installed

The Kongō class of guided missile destroyers serves as the core ship of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF)’s Escort Flotillas. They are a modification of the United States Navy’s Arleigh Burke class (Flight I).

The Kongō class employs the highly advanced Aegis fire control system and is armed with the RIM-66 SM-2MR Block II surface-to-air missile, RUM-139 vertically launched anti-submarine rocket, the RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile, two Mark 15 20 mm CIWS gun mounts, two torpedo mounts in a triple tube configuration, and an Oto Melara 127 mm/54 caliber gun. Its Mark 41 vertical launch system can hold 90 missiles. However, in keeping with the defensive mission of the JMSDF and passive role of the Japan Self-Defense Forces in general, the Kongō-class lacks the Tomahawk missile.

As on other ships employing the Aegis system, the superstructure is dominated by the SPY-1’s phased arrays, which eliminates the need for a traditional rotating antenna. The design of the superstructure also incorporates certain stealth features, designed to reduce radar cross section of the ship; however, as a consequence, the ship is considerably more top-heavy than a typical destroyer and requires a much deeper draft. As such, operations in a littoral (coastal) environment are limited. Overall, Kongō-class destroyers are much larger than traditional destroyers and at 9,485 tons displacement come close to cruisers in size. Because they are built to different operational requirements than the Arleigh Burke-class ships, such as for carrying extra equipments for commanding a squadron, the Kongō-class ships’ internal arrangement is quite different from the original design is based. Recognisable external features are the vertical mast and the sleek sides of the bridge.

The Kongō class vessels are being modified to serve in a theater missile defense role, with the primary intention of countering North Korean ballistic missiles. This purpose and a financial crisis made the Flight II variant of the Arleigh Burke class the choice for the follow-on class to the Tachikaze and Asakaze. The new destroyer was named Atago in 2005.

Kongō class destroyers are powered by four Ishikawajima-Harima LM2500 gas turbines.

In December 2007, Japan conducted a successful test of the SM-3 block IA against a ballistic missile aboard JDS Kongō (DDG-173). This was the first time a Japanese ship was selected to launch the interceptor missile during a test of the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System. In previous tests they provided tracking and communications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong%C5%8D_class_destroyer

The Atago class of guided missile destroyers is an improved version of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF)’s Kongō class destroyers. It is a Japanese variant of the United States Navy Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (Flight IIA).

The Atago class is fundamentally an improved and scaled up version of Kongō class destroyers. It features large accommodation and capable of flexible operation. One of the most obvious change is additional hangar to carry one SH-60K helicopter. In comparison to the Kongō-class/Arleigh Burke-class (Flight I) which only had helicopter platforms (but no support equipment), these ships have better helicopter handling facilities. To enhance Atago class’ function as command centers, the bridge is two floors higher than Arleigh Burke-class Flight IIA, making her full load displacement over 10,000 tons—the first time for a JMSDF surface combat vessel. The gun caliber has extended from the 54 caliber of the Kongō class to the 62 caliber with strengthened powder charge capable 38 km firing range . As with other Japanese ships being refit, the American-made Harpoon missiles (such as in the initial configuration of the Kongō class) have been replaced with the Japanese-made Type 90 (SSM-1B) surface-to-surface guided missiles.

The fire-control system for the Atago is Aegis Weapon System Baseline 7 phase 1, which will combine American- and Japanese-manufactured systems to make up the complete Aegis system. The Aegis Weapon System baseline 7 has improved tracking accuracy for vertical targets, and an acquisition capability for small low-altitude targets compared with the Aegis Weapon System baseline 4 and 5, used in Kongō class. The Atago also use a new stealthier plain-structure mast, which was originally designed in Japan, rather than familiar lattice type mast. New modified smokestack and other improvements are also introduced to make Atago stealthier.

Like the Kongō class, the Atago destroyers are equipped with a comprehensive suite of weapon systems including:

Japan Type 90 (SSM-1B) anti-ship missile
96-cell Mk-41 VLS (64 cells in the forward area, 32 cells in the stern area)
RIM-66 Standard surface-to-air missile
ASROC anti-submarine missile
Two Mark 15 20 mm CIWS gun mounts
Two torpedo mounts in a triple-tube configuration
One Mk 45 Mod 4 127 mm 62-caliber gun, in a stealth-shaped mount. Made by Japan Steel Works under an American license from its original manufacturer.

In keeping with Japan’s post-war pacifist constitution, the Atago class does not carry the Tomahawk missile.

General characteristics
Class and type: Atago class Guided missile destroyer
Displacement: 7,750 tons standard
10,000+ tons full load
Length: 170 m (557 ft 9 in)
Beam: 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
Draft: 6.2 m (20 ft 4 in)
Propulsion: 4 Ishikawajima Harima/General Electric LM2500-30 gas turbines
Two shafts
100,000 shaft horsepower (75 MW)
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h)
Complement: 300
Sensors and
processing systems: AN/SPY-1 radar
Armament: • 8 x SSM-1B SSM
• SM-2MR Standard SAM
• ASROC anti-submarine rocket
• 1 x 5 inch (127 mm)/62 cal Mk.45 mod 4 lightweight gun
• 2 x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
• 2 x HOS302 triple torpedo tubes
(6 x Mk-46 or type73 torpedoes)
Aircraft carried: 1 × SH-60K helicopter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atago_class_destroyer

The Sejong the Great class destroyers , also known as KDX-III, are guided missile destroyers of the Republic of Korea Navy. The lead ship was launched 25 May 2007, sponsored by Kwon Yang-sook. It was deployed for naval operations in 2009 after more than a year of test operations. As of 2007, the ROK Navy had committed to 3 units with an option on three more.

Sejong the Great class destroyers’ main gun is the 127mm/L62 Mk. 45 Mod 4 naval gun, an improved version of the same gun used on other warships from several foreign nations.

General characteristics
Class and type: Sejong the Great class destroyers
Displacement: 7,700 tonnes hull displacement
10,000 ± 290 tonnes full load
Length: 165.9 m
Beam: 21.4 m
Draft: 6.25 m
Propulsion: 4 General Electric LM2500 COGAG;
two shafts,
100,000 total shaft horsepower (75 MW)
Speed: 30+ knots (56+ km/h)
Range: 5,500 nautical miles
Complement: 300-400 crew members
Sensors and
processing systems: AN/SPY-1D(V5) multi-function radar, four antenna arrays, single deck house.
AN/SPG-62 fire control radar
Atlas Elektronik Bow-mounted DSQS-21 BZ-M sonar
MTeQ towed array sonar system.

Electronic warfare
and decoys: LIG Nex1 SLQ-200(V)1K Sonata electronic warfare suite.[1]
Armament: 1 x 5 inch (127mm/L62) Mk-45 Mod 4 naval gun
1 x 30 mm Goalkeeper CIWS
1 x RAM Block 1 SAAM
80 cells Mk 41 VLS SM-2 Block IIIB/IV
4 x 4 SSM-700K Hae Sung long-range anti-ship missile
32 x Hyunmoo III land attack missiles
16 x K-ASROC Red Shark in (VLS)
2 x 3 K745 LW Blue Shark torpedoes

Aircraft carried: • Two Westland Lynx Mk.99 ASW helicopters with full accommodations

Point-defense armaments include a single 30 mm Goalkeeper CIWS and a RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile Block 1 21-round launcher, the first Aegis platform to carry RAM. Anti-aircraft armament is consisted of SM-2 Block IIIA and IIIB in 80-cell VLS. Anti-Submarine Warfare armaments consists of both K-ASROC Hong Sahng-uh (Red Shark) anti-submarine rockets and 32 K745 LW Cheong Sahng-uh (Blue Shark) torpedoes. Anti-ship capability is provided by 16 SSM-700K Hae Sung (Sea Star) long-range anti-ship missile, each with performance similar to the U.S. Harpoon. Land-attack capability is provided by the recently-developed Hyunmoo IIIC (Guardian of the Northern Sky) cruise missile, which is similar to the U.S. Tomahawk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Sejong_the_Great_class_destroyer

Sejong the Great class destroyers’ are often compared to Arleigh Burke class and Atago class because they utilize the AN/SPY-1 multi-function radar, have similar propulsion and capabilities.

One notable difference between the Sejong the Great-class ships and Burkes is the number of VLS cells. Destroyers of the Sejong the Great class will have a capacity of 128 missiles, as opposed to 96 on the Arleigh Burke class and the Japanese Atago class destroyers. And another difference between the Sejong the Great-class ships and Burkes and Atago class the Point-defense armaments which consist of Goalkeeper CIWS and a RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile.

Land-attack capability for Sejong the Great class is provided by the recently-developed Hyunmoo IIIC (Guardian of the Northern Sky) cruise missile, which is similar to the U.S. Tomahawk.

When the the Atago class does not carry the Tomahawk missile, or any land-attack capability .

the bridge for the Atago class is two floors higher than Arleigh Burke-class Flight IIA, making her full load displacement over 10,000 tons—the first time for a JMSDF surface combat vessel.

A similarity to Arleigh Burke class Flight IIA and Atago class destroyers is the presence of full facilities for two helicopters, a feature missing from earlier Arleigh Burke and Kongō class destroyers.

ROKS Sejong the Great (DDG 991)

Atago (DDG-177)