Assisted suicide – where do you stand?

Here are two serious enquiries for those who are prepared to represent their god here.

1) I have led a blameless life, helping old ladies across the road, rehoming lost kittens, buying a copy of the Big Issue every week. Raised two children from baptism, through confirmation and into adulthood whence one has gone on the the priesthood and the other has entered a convent (There’ll be hell to pay if they ever spot him). Never sworn, blasphemed, stole, coveted nor committed adultery. I catch a nasty disease that condemns me to a long and painful death. I choose to travel to Dignitas so as to make an early exit. Does this mean I am condemned to eternal damnation for that single act, or can I say ‘sorry’ when I arrive at the pearly gates a bit early?

2) I have led a blameless life, helping old ladies across the road, rehoming lost kittens, buying a copy of the Big Issue every week. Raised two children from baptism, through confirmation and into adulthood whence one has gone on the the priesthood and the other has entered a convent (There’ll be hell to pay if they ever spot him). Never sworn, blasphemed, stole, coveted nor committed adultery. My beloved wife catches a nasty disease that condemns her to a long and painful death. I choose to travel with her to Dignitas so as she can make an early exit. Does this mean I am condemned to eternal damnation for that single act, or can I say ‘sorry’ when I eventually arrive at the pearly gates myself?

Moggy

One question I have always wondered and have never had a satisfactory answer for beyond a rather evasive ’it’s a test’, is if God is the caring, loving being believers claim him to be, why did he create such a stunningly beautiful planet and then proceed to screw it up so much?

Paul

Paul, again this is my view from theology, so don’t hold me to it 😮

God created the planet etc as we all know according to the bible. However, in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:1 onwards, the part of the story where Eve was tempted by the snake (satan) to take the apple from the forbidden tree and give it to Adam – that is what created evil into the planet, and it’s at the hands of people who are meant to be protecting the planet for God, becuase God doesn’t want to intervene on the way we live on the planet, so “all mistakes are the cause of humans” in theory

I’m going to take the points of what people have made about christianity and use my personal view from the studies in theology I have been doing.

Question me if you must, i’m not meaning to sound petty or be condescending, this is just potential back ups or againsts to peoples points. So here goes.

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In terms in children who die at birth, it can be argued by some that God chose this for them, but, roman catholics say that people are born without sin or conscience, therefore, if you have no sin at your birth, then surely it can’t be God who decided you have sinned, therefore he must not have caused the person to unwillingly die.

People say that God is the causer of all that is evil and some believe he doesn’t exist, right?

God is omnipotent and omniscient, so he knows everything about the universe and the people living on it. It is argued by philosopher Anselm, that ‘God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived’, so we can only imagine something greater than him, thus he must be of existence if he is ‘that than … conceived’.
God was the creator of the universe in the eyes of Christianity, so, if you imagined a ‘perfect island’ like Gaunilo did, then it therefore can only be in your mind, so becuase it is there it is not true in reality.
All of these points connected about God’s creation and the person he is, is called the ontological argument.

The biggest thing that people go against God in, are the problems of evil which we suffer, such as death, illness, pain etc. Summarised in 5 ways, we can say that God exists and created the universe from nothing and is still interesed in the creation he made and that becuase he done that he must be omnipotent and wholly good becuase he has not sinned, but he wishes for no suffering to take place but there is still the problem of evil from his fallen angel, which is how evil came about.

I’m not going to go any further, becuase I think I have ranted too much here and not only that, I have lost the focus of what I was trying to point out. But, all of the above is linked to the existence of God, and from seeing that and from the belief I have always had in him, I can easy say that despite the rejection he has from people, I can honestly say, I believe in God.

Um, no. Christianity teaches that life IS valuable and something VERY special that is NOT to be taken from someone except in a limited set of circumstances. I was saying that if there is NO God – then you have to come up with some arbitrary standards for what is good, what is evil, and what the meaning of life is all about! That’s what I was getting at. You and I BOTH believe that life is extremely valuable – I just know how I get to that conclusion. How do you get to it?

That does contradict what you were saying earlier somewhat, but I guess it’s in the nature of many religions to contradict themselves.

Something I find interesting is how many God fearing people confuse a belief with an absolute, unequivocal fact, and how so many deeply religious people have an apparent inability to comprehend how those who don’t bow down to ‘him upstairs’ can even contemplate things such as ‘the meaning of life’. You say you know how to get to that conclusion, and by ‘conclusion’ I assume you’re talking about believing life is precious and important. Well, did you really need to be told that? Was that not something that came naturally to you as a Human being? Did you need the belief in a higher plane of existence or a superior governing being to make you realise that? How did I come to that conclusion? Because I’m a thinking, feeling person and it came naturally. I didn’t need to be told the value of life; I naturally understand it as everyone should. You say if you don’t believe in God you have to come up with arbitrary standards as to what is good, evil, and what the meaning of it is. Frankly, that’s a spectacular load of nonsense. Can you honestly say that you take what you believe to be the word of God as the absolute rules you live your life by, and do you genuinely believe people who aren’t religious have no concept of right or wrong?

One question I have always wondered and have never had a satisfactory answer for beyond a rather evasive ’it’s a test’, is if God is the caring, loving being believers claim him to be, why did he create such a stunningly beautiful planet and then proceed to screw it up so much? He allows nations to fight each other, killing millions in the process, allows famine, disease, natural disasters, etc. I want to know why and how this can be allowed to happen. ’It’s a test and if you pass everything is nice in the afterlife’ simply isn’t good enough. I wish I could think of the friends I’ve lost over the last 5 or so years and think it’s all OK, they’re in a better place now living it up inside a cloud somewhere, but I can’t. I valued them too much for me to be so dismissive and to put my faith in a God whose existance cannot be proven. We live in a world saturated with pain and suffering. If God allows that to happen then I’m sorry, but ‘The Almighty’ is something of a warped personality and should seek some kind of counselling.

Paul

I was just trying to make a point that if you do not have anything to look forward to, or an objective standard of what is good, then how can you say it’s bad for anyone to die?

No religion provides an objective standard of what is good.

Religious dogma – all religious dogma – is highly subjective.

Yeah, but in their religion that attitude is justified. In the one I’m defending (Christianity) it’s not justified.

“Fundamentalist” does not mean “Moslem”.

There are fundamentalists in every religion. Christianity is far from being immune from their malign influence.

That is why I believe that some folks are given an extended opportunity – even if they are in great pain. …….

It’s a pity Sally is dead, I’d have loved to hear her comments on the wonderful “opportunity” God gave her to suffer for the last eight or nine months of her life. He’s such a generous old buffer.

The thing about an opportunity is that there is no compulsion to seize it. An opportunity comes up and you can say “Yes, I embrace that” or “No thanks, I’ll give that a miss” That’s all assisted suicide is about, giving people choice.

By the way.. I was interested that this God has apparently forbidden ‘murder’ As I understand it ‘murder’ is a legal definition that can changes from year to year. So if the British High Court downgrades the killing of an abusive spouse from murder to manslaughter then from there on it’s OK by God?

Anyway, you have clearly explained how you see the rules developed by your imaginary best friend applying to your world. You still haven’t given a word of explanation as to why it should be imposed on other, more rationally thinking people.

Moggy

That sound’s like another extreme fundamentalist religious view iv’e heard of;)

Yeah, but in their religion that attitude is justified. In the one I’m defending (Christianity) it’s not justified. In fact, its evil. I was just trying to make a point that if you do not have anything to look forward to, or an objective standard of what is good, then how can you say it’s bad for anyone to die?

Ryan

I, for one was not criticising (or even criticizing) your beliefs.

I was merely asking what justification you have for seeking to impose them on others, to the extent that they suffer needless pain and indignity?

Moggy

I suppose I do not explain myself very well. Basically, what I mean is that I agree that there is pain and suffering in the world, and that it is tragic. We all approach these things from some point of view – which must explain why we take whatever course of action we choose to take. I believe that the worldview that I believe gives adequate answers for what is good, and what is evil, and also provides a consistent standard in an ultimate authority that is not arbitrary. For instance – murder is ALWAYS wrong – because God said so. IF you do not believe in God – then you have to come up with some other standard that you hold as your ultimate authority for what you believe. That is what I challenge you to ponder. If it is yourself – then how do you deal with the evil or bad desires in your own heart? If it is the consensus of others – then what do you do with a society that’s willing to commit mass murder or genocide against another group? If it’s something else… Do you see what I mean? I happen to believe that a very strong argument can be made for the existence and rationality of belief in God.
As far as “needless” pain and suffering goes – I think I know about that of which you speak. On the other hand – God has set laws and boundaries in this world – which is why we can rely on things to be relatively constant – like the sun coming up tomorrow morning. If you do things counter to those laws – such as gravity (trying to keep an aviation theme here at a stretch) and you don’t have enough lift – then you’re going to crash. Sometimes you don’t mean to run counter to his laws – like the aviator who is trying to avoid an obstacle and doesn’t realize that he doesn’t have enough lift to make the turn and stalls. However, those laws are still in place and because of sin there will still be an effect. I don’t think my friend that got killed in the car wreck intentionally got in front of the other car – but he still suffered the results.
God has also said that because of sin – which was man’s fault from the Garden of Eden and which we are born into – we are all going to die someday – but we don’t have to die in the ultimate sense of the word – as God promises eternal life in a wonderful, sin-free world to those who follow another of His rules and trust in Christ. That is why I believe that some folks are given an extended opportunity – even if they are in great pain. I had an uncle who had cancer – and believe me it was terrible, but a few weeks before he died he apparently came to understand the truth and died with peace in his life. “Quality of life” is such a subjective term anyway. I know some rich folks who should be happy and satisfied, who are always miserable because they don’t live right. On the other hand, I know of some folks who are practically invalids and in constant pain who are wonderful people to be around because of the hope they have that affects their attitudes.

Ryan

The brainwashing really did work for you, didn’t it? I don’t believe in God but I’d like to think there are people who would care if I died, say, on the M1 on my way to London tomorrow. I have very close friends who don’t believe in God and I’d certainly be more than upset if I were to lose them, as I sadly have been in the past.

If religion essentially teaches you how worthless life is, as you seem to imply, I’m very, very happy to play no part in it. I value my friends and family dearly; they really are the most important thing in my life and I simply can’t rationalise any point of view that suggests the relationships we have with our fellow people or the way we live our lives in our current state are totally meaningless. What a terrible way to live your life it must be if you actually think like that.

Paul

Um, no. Christianity teaches that life IS valuable and something VERY special that is NOT to be taken from someone except in a limited set of circumstances. I was saying that if there is NO God – then you have to come up with some arbitrary standards for what is good, what is evil, and what the meaning of life is all about! That’s what I was getting at. You and I BOTH believe that life is extremely valuable – I just know how I get to that conclusion. How do you get to it?

Ryan

If you don’t believe in God, then really, who cares if you die? You’re just a blob of something that knows your existence for a brief while and then goes away – just like a blade of grass, or a flower.

The brainwashing really did work for you, didn’t it? I don’t believe in God but I’d like to think there are people who would care if I died, say, on the M1 on my way to London tomorrow. I have very close friends who don’t believe in God and I’d certainly be more than upset if I were to lose them, as I sadly have been in the past.

If religion essentially teaches you how worthless life is, as you seem to imply, I’m very, very happy to play no part in it. I value my friends and family dearly; they really are the most important thing in my life and I simply can’t rationalise any point of view that suggests the relationships we have with our fellow people or the way we live our lives in our current state are totally meaningless. What a terrible way to live your life it must be if you actually think like that.

Paul

. If you don’t believe in God, then really, who cares if you die?

Ryan

That sound’s like another extreme fundamentalist religious view iv’e heard of;)

I don’t believe your arguments will stand ultimately because the criteria you are using to criticize my beliefs in fact beg my position without properly understanding it.

I, for one was not criticising (or even criticizing) your beliefs.

I was merely asking what justification you have for seeking to impose them on others, to the extent that they suffer needless pain and indignity?

Moggy

Re assisted suicide[original post] it’s up to every individual to decide when and where to die,and no law should exist to deny you that.If someone helps you with traveling from a to b to carry out your wishes so be it but do not penalise them.Now obviously there will be some who will use this as an advantage to bump of unwanted relatives and the law should come down hard on them. But what right does anyone have to force someonelse to continue living in pain and agony just to satisfy their beliefs.
As for the god question someones imaginary leader is just that.
And if there is a god he better hurry up and turn my life:p around or i want a refund! Where do i complain to?:dev2:

And no, that does not make God a violator of His commandments because:
1. that command was given to US His creatures.
2. He is able to reverse death.
3. He ultimately has a higher good in play.
4. He promises eternal life with reward for those who believe in Him in the future even if they die.

Yeah right! I will stick with 666:diablo:

Scripture teaches that death is a product of sin and rebellion and that it is NOT the normal way things are supposed to be, but came into the world after the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Your scripture also teaches that it is an abomination to wear mixed fibres or to eat shellfish and that insects have 4 legs.

How utterly absurd.

A one week old baby dies. You have written that God has the power to reverse death, he didn’t. So if I understand you correctly, the death of this infant is due to sin and rebellion. How can you attribute sin to a one week old child? Are you suggesting that this child would be rewarded by dying because of its belief in God?

I am not one of God’s ‘creatures’, a mere toy for this all powerful being to play with and to toss aside when he’s had his fun.

“If you don’t believe in God, then really, who cares if you die?”

If you do believe in God who cares if you die? God certainly doesn’t.

If those are God’s terms and conditions I reject them and him completely.

Regards,

kev35

First, I’ve seen my share of tragedy – a close friend (a good, bright, promising, scholarly young man who was 19) was killed in a car wreck almost exactly a year ago. The year before that a family I knew was all wiped out in another car wreck. I’ve also had family members die, and seen a fatal plane crash (was second to the plane and saw some NASTY stuff).

I don’t believe your arguments will stand ultimately because the criteria you are using to criticize my beliefs in fact beg my position without properly understanding it.

Basically, it’s like this:
Death is only a tragedy if it’s something that’s NOT part of normal, good life. If you don’t believe in God, then really, who cares if you die? You’re just a blob of something that knows your existence for a brief while and then goes away – just like a blade of grass, or a flower.
Quality of life assumes that something is better than something else – which presupposes good and evil – how are you going to define that without God ultimately?

Scripture teaches that death is a product of sin and rebellion and that it is NOT the normal way things are supposed to be, but came into the world after the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, death IS a tragedy and is something that should not be.

And no, that does not make God a violator of His commandments because:
1. that command was given to US His creatures.
2. He is able to reverse death.
3. He ultimately has a higher good in play.
4. He promises eternal life with reward for those who believe in Him in the future even if they die.

Ryan

Sally, a devout believer, did a four or five minute broadcast stating quite simply her wish to take the decision to leave this life with dignity and giving cogent reasons why she should so be allowed.

Firstly, sympathies for what you both went through. I watched my father die two years ago at the age of 67 yrs and 6 months of stomach cancer. 5 days sick leave in 35 years of work at the same company, and he ended up being fed yoghurt direct into his bowel to keep him going. We never discussed this, but to have a choice between that “existance” and a quiet, dignified death is surely a right? I know what I would choose. I watched my Dad, my hero, turn from somebody who had never been ill into a shadow of himself – where is the dignity in that for him?

I believe it’s still murder or assisted self murder – even if the other person wants to die – and a clear violation of the Ten Commandments. God grants life and He alone should determine that it’s another person’s time to go.

Ryan

Is this the same God who decided two adults and four children should die in a car crash on the M6 the other week? One of whom was a babe in arms? Is this the same God who decided a 14 year old girl should die in my arms? The same God who decided my girlfriend’s life was worth less than that of her sister? I’ve watched literally hundreds of people die, many of them in agony, without hope, without comfort and without dignity and some of them still believed. If that is your idea of God then you can keep him. I want nothing to do with an entity utterly without compassion. I want nothing to do with an entity that can, on a whim, murder a family of six on the M6 in Cheshire.

If what you believe is right Ryan, then the biggest violator of the Commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’ is God himself!

Regards,

kev35

God grants life and He alone should determine that it’s another person’s time to go.

Can I just point out that passing the responsibility onto a being that may exist, or might simply be your imaginary best friend, is fine for you.

But there are people who do not share your beliefs, and to proscribe their actions based on what, to them, is a fantasy figure seems a little over prescriptive to me.

My Ex-partner died of a nasty cancer almost two years ago. About the time her terminal condition was confirmed the UK parliament was debating assisted suicide.

Today, the key current affairs programme on UK Radio 4, invited The archbishop of Canterbury and the UK Roman Catholic Primate to debate the issue in the flagship 08.10 slot.

Before them Sally, a devout believer, did a four or five minute broadcast stating quite simply her wish to take the decision to leave this life with dignity and giving cogent reasons why she should so be allowed.

The religious numpties that followed hadn’t even listened to her. They just read out their preprepared dogma and never addressed one of the issues she raised.

One of them, I think it was Williams, couldn’t even allow Sally the respect of remembering her name.

It reduced me to tears and confirmed me in the opinion that organised religion in this country is the plaything of a load of bigoted, useless tw*ts.

Ryan, if you want to die in a painful and squalid manner that is your choice, but I see no reason why you should inflict it on others.

Moggy