Astute SSN

Yes they were, LOL! 😀

No they were not, if they were you would be able to qoute them, I challenge of to find the following,

Total combined sea days for the USN and the RuN

And the total number of accidents for both

Oh and stop lying.

No they were not.:rolleyes:

Yes they were, LOL! 😀

According to the book Rebuilding the Royal Navy which was written by DK Brown who was a ship designer RN subs were significantly in front of other designs in sound suppression and propeller design, but i believe that some of these skills were lost between the design of the Trafalgar’s and the Astute.

Never said the Russians didn’t know what they were doing, was merely trying to point out that while the Akula II’s have had some upgrades, they are still essentially a 1980’s design.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Trafalgar’s were roughly equivilent to the Improve LA’s. Not sure about the French as their Rubis class were their first attempt at a nuclear submarine.

I am not too sure if the sub design has changed drastically since the albacore design came up , what has changed drastically is the internals.

But if an SSK is doing 4 knots , it may require more energy to do this task with pumpjet , but it will be more silent than a prop at same speed.

My point is just adding a pumjet will not make a sub silent , pumjet is just one of the many in the matrix.

A modern Akula 2 like Nerpa or Gepard might have achieved the near 4th gen capability barring some systems like use of pumpjet propulsion or spherical sonar.

But then you had questioned the whole basis if Russia could achieve such acoustic silencing which can be at par or better than the west.

I have never came across literature on capability of West ( not the US ) which will mean Brits and France in the area of acoustic silencing

Do Brits or French SSN have achieved a capability which can match a USN Improved LA class SSN ?

Never said the Russians didn’t know what they were doing, was merely trying to point out that while the Akula II’s have had some upgrades, they are still essentially a 1980’s design.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Trafalgar’s were roughly equivilent to the Improve LA’s. Not sure about the French as their Rubis class were their first attempt at a nuclear submarine.

Counter productive i’m afraid. While pump jet propulsion is quieter then propulsion with a propeller, it is a less efficient method of propulsion, in order to attain the same speed, a higher amount of Energy output it required.

So basicly putting pump jets on an SSK limits its effective combat radius and tactical speed.

But if an SSK is doing 4 knots , it may require more energy to do this task with pumpjet , but it will be more silent than a prop at same speed.

My point is just adding a pumjet will not make a sub silent , pumjet is just one of the many in the matrix.

A modern Akula 2 like Nerpa or Gepard might have achieved the near 4th gen capability barring some systems like use of pumpjet propulsion or spherical sonar.

But then you had questioned the whole basis if Russia could achieve such acoustic silencing which can be at par or better than the west.

I have never came across literature on capability of West ( not the US ) which will mean Brits and France in the area of acoustic silencing

Do Brits or French SSN have achieved a capability which can match a USN Improved LA class SSN ?

One of the Kilo submarine AL Rosa has a pump jet propulsion , its an operational deployed submarine and is a conventional submarine ( no N reactors , pumps etc ) , that should make it quieter than all the submarines that you have mentioned since its a pump jet submarine and over an above a conventional one

If you add pumpjet propulsion to a Victor 2 SSN will that be classified as 4th Gen submarine ?

Counter productive i’m afraid. While pump jet propulsion is quieter then propulsion with a propeller, it is a less efficient method of propulsion, in order to attain the same speed, a higher amount of Energy output it required.

So basicly putting pump jets on an SSK limits its effective combat radius and tactical speed.

They were provided earlier anyway. :rolleyes: So go cry the thread a river.

No they were not.:rolleyes:

A point of view that is nonsense, the USN operates more vessels at a much higher operational tempo, you have already been told that relaible accident rates can only be ascertained by comparing the numbers to Sea rates. I suspect that you will not even be able to provide the number of accidents per year for the USN anyway.:rolleyes:

They were provided earlier anyway. :rolleyes: So go cry the thread a river.

I thought the Vanguard class also had pump jet as well

I thought the swiftsures (comissioned 73-81)were completed with pump jets, D K brown suggests so in his book rebuilding the royal navy.

The US has more accidents than the Russian Navy. The Russian accidents you mention both have high casualties – and both for obvious reasons. :rolleyes:

A point of view that is nonsense, the USN operates more vessels at a much higher operational tempo, you have already been told that relaible accident rates can only be ascertained by comparing the numbers to Sea rates. I suspect that you will not even be able to provide the number of accidents per year for the USN anyway.:rolleyes:

Well, Russia was far from leading the west 20 years ago and until the past couple of years didn’t even have the funds to keep most of its current fleet in service. Now we are to believe they are equal to the west???? Let’s not forget the Kursk of a few years back and the recent accident that killed dozens of saliors and tech on a Nuclear Submarine. Sorry, you didn’t make the sale………

The US has more accidents than the Russian Navy. The Russian accidents you mention both have high casualties – and both for obvious reasons. :rolleyes:

The pump jet boats are quieter then the boats with the normal propellers. Do any of the Russian subs have pump jets yet? Akula 2 might be quieter then the LA class, but unless its got pump jet (which i’m not sure about) its probably not quieter then the later Trafalgar’s, Astute, Virginia and Sea Wolf class boats.

One of the Kilo submarine AL Rosa has a pump jet propulsion , its an operational deployed submarine and is a conventional submarine ( no N reactors , pumps etc ) , that should make it quieter than all the submarines that you have mentioned since its a pump jet submarine and over an above a conventional one

If you add pumpjet propulsion to a Victor 2 SSN will that be classified as 4th Gen submarine ?

If you are not updated with Russian submarine development the change came with Victor 3 SSN in early 80’s ( before this the Russian subs were noisy , but they scored on speed , depth and automation ) , it just got better with Akula 1 and with Akula 2 it surpassed the 688I , it took a decade between Victor 3 and Akula 2 ( 1995 ) to achieve this incredible feat.

They didnt have funds to make new subs , but back then they did spend their money on R&D to keep up with technology , hence now you see improved variant of Akula 2 , Lada , modernised Delta 4 , Borei and so on.

Any way the belief is among the naval professional and intell in the west as mentioned by Norman Polmar in his book , plus others like Rising Tide , so its a opinion of those who are in business.

You have not presented any evidence otherwise to prove that it is not the case , except you own make believe statement of quoting accidents.

The pump jet boats are quieter then the boats with the normal propellers. Do any of the Russian subs have pump jets yet? Akula 2 might be quieter then the LA class, but unless its got pump jet (which i’m not sure about) its probably not quieter then the later Trafalgar’s, Astute, Virginia and Sea Wolf class boats.

Well, Russia was far from leading the west 20 years ago and until the past couple of years didn’t even have the funds to keep most of its current fleet in service. Now we are to believe they are equal to the west???? Let’s not forget the Kursk of a few years back and the recent accident that killed dozens of saliors and tech on a Nuclear Submarine. Sorry, you didn’t make the sale………

If you are not updated with Russian submarine development the change came with Victor 3 SSN in early 80’s ( before this the Russian subs were noisy , but they scored on speed , depth and automation ) , it just got better with Akula 1 and with Akula 2 it surpassed the 688I , it took a decade between Victor 3 and Akula 2 ( 1995 ) to achieve this incredible feat.

They didnt have funds to make new subs , but back then they did spend their money on R&D to keep up with technology , hence now you see improved variant of Akula 2 , Lada , modernised Delta 4 , Borei and so on.

Any way the belief is among the naval professional and intell in the west as mentioned by Norman Polmar in his book , plus others like Rising Tide , so its a opinion of those who are in business.

You have not presented any evidence otherwise to prove that it is not the case , except you own make believe statement of quoting accidents.

I thought the Vanguard class also had pump jet as well

Timing is about right I should imagine so, I always seem to forget about SSBNs:confused:

What I stated above was based on comments made by senior Admirals of USN to congress regarding the Akula 2 capability , and also comments made by Norman Polmar and KG Moore in their book cold war submarine

Regarding Gepard the comments was made by the Chief Designer of submarine himself , when he mentioned that Gepard approached closer in capability to 4th Gen sub , an apparent reference to Sea Wolf SSN

In the same book Norman mentioned that there is a broad conclusion among USN submarine community and intelligence organisation in US , that Russian 4th Gen Submarine would be equal or surpass the capability of any USN 4th Gen Sub in most parameter.

Its fine if majority agrees or not , if they dont I expect them to put some concrete references from credible sources , to prove their point.

It is very easy for me to say that India’s ATV would be the most silent SSBN sub in the world when commissioned, but then it would just be a nationalistic mindset and opinion

Well, Russia was far from leading the west 20 years ago and until the past couple of years didn’t even have the funds to keep most of its current fleet in service. Now we are to believe they are equal to the west???? Let’s not forget the Kursk of a few years back and the recent accident that killed dozens of saliors and tech on a Nuclear Submarine. Sorry, you didn’t make the sale………

Did you mean Astute and not Resolute:confused:

RN Trafalgar Class has pump jet propulsion (except Trafalgar).

I thought the Vanguard class also had pump jet as well

Yup, because nothing Russia makes can even come close to Uncle Sam products. :rolleyes: That’s new coming from you. :rolleyes:

From how I read things on this forum, I have three words to quote to you:
Pot – Kettle – Black!!!!

Bomberboy

One characteristic of 4th gen nuclear submarines is the use of pumpjet propulsion, which might be quieter even than a skewed propeller. Subs that have them include the Resolute, Astute, Sea Wolf and Virginia class. The French Barracuda class plans to have it too, and some of the latest French SSBNs appear to have them.

I’m not sure the Akula II has that and it does not appear at least from the first Akula II the Vepr, that it has one. The Borei does however, and I seem more confident that the Borei is more qualified to be in the 4th generation.

Did you mean Astute and not Resolute:confused:

RN Trafalgar Class has pump jet propulsion (except Trafalgar).