Attack on PNS mehran : P3C destroyed.

Navy blames PAF for security lapse

They asked media to comply during GHQ operation and limit the coverage, media did so, did they ask again this time initially? You cannot solely be pissed at media. This should have been part of SOP if it wasn’t already. It should have been part of it before GHQ raid, if it wasnt, then surely after that. There are fools still claiming there were no mistakes…let alone learning from them. As a member said earlier, time to be proactive, rather than passive.

Unfortunately, I don’t think that at this moment in time Pakistani armed forces have do have such plans in place to handle the media to ensure that no excessive reporting and information is provided during the operation. A mistake which needs to be corrected.

But at the same time media itself needs to be responsible too and shouldn’t try to telecast the military operation against terrorists like a hockey match just to get ahead of each other and say i reported it first. They need to act as maturely not as kids trying to compete for a plate of pie.

This is not the first time, i remember the red mosque operation in Islamabad when ARY NEWS was using the roof of a private house to actually live telecast the movement of troops around mosque and showed troops preparing and launching attack which allowed militants to prepare for attack in advance.

When military realized the situation they had to locate and stop the news team of ARY NEWS and result was ARY turning against them and from that moment on they started bashing army.

At the same time security forces are very pissed at the live coverage of the operation by the media as they say helped terrorist in avoiding the SSGN. They say that one time when Helicopter was used to place SSGN operators over the building terrorist were hiding media announced it as soon as this happened and element of surprise was lost and many of the terrorists were able to flee and took refuge in another building. After this media was forced further back from the base.

They asked media to comply during GHQ operation and limit the coverage, media did so, did they ask again this time initially? You cannot solely be pissed at media. This should have been part of SOP if it wasn’t already. It should have been part of it before GHQ raid, if it wasnt, then surely after that. There are fools still claiming there were no mistakes…let alone learning from them. As a member said earlier, time to be proactive, rather than passive.

OK.

That’s the trash taken out.

Fight your flame wars elsewhere, people.

Nationalistic fantasies are not “background”.

Back on-topic, please.

Thanks

GA

Thanks your sir, Appreciate the effort to keep this thread clean

India pays in full. Pakistan gets a subsidy. When the USA first provided F-16s & AH-1s to Pakistan in 1983, & Pakistan ordered P-3s in the late 1980s, it wasn’t willing to sell any weapons to India, & had blocked the sale of European aircraft with US engines.

I am not saying that US shouldn’t sell to India or why US is selling weapons to India as we both know that’s what Weapons manufacturers do to keep running their factories. My point was that US is not providing many Items to Pakistan because its feels it will upset India (like You said India got deep pockets) even if the item is required in limited numbers.

Pakistan paid for the Block 52+ from its own pocket though some part (I don’t remember the exact percentage but it was given by the Last Air chief Tanveer)of funding for the MLU is coming from USA.

One of the item is Gunship Helicopters, Pakistan wanted a dozen or so new AH-1W or AH-64 for Afghan border for a similar role in which USA and NATO uses its AH-64D & Tiger gunships along the afghan border but requests were denied and US provided 40 year old AH-1s at over $15 million each and they are such a big problem to keep operational that PA rejected batch of last 8 AH-1Fs.

Let me make it clear again that I wasn’t trying to compare the arms sales to two nations but US hesitation in providing essential weapons which can be key in operations in region like FATA.

Now back to main topic

It was expected that Naval Chief among others wont accept this as their mistake due to his close friendship with Mr 10% and he did rejected that it was a security laps (Yes infront of whole media).

Today, It looks like Pakistani Media especially news channels are taking over and started hours long programs covering details of operation as well as looking for loopholes in the security of the base and one of the Channel’s reported traveled via train which passes near by the base and showed how he can see he hangers and aircraft including P-3C etc.

They are questing each and almost every step which allowed that terrorists to get inside base and bashing the security planning against such attacks.

I sincerely hope that top leadership will wake up sooner then later and understand the fact that they need to be active then passive to prevent such attacks in future.

At the same time security forces are very pissed at the live coverage of the operation by the media as they say helped terrorist in avoiding the SSGN. They say that one time when Helicopter was used to place SSGN operators over the building terrorist were hiding media announced it as soon as this happened and element of surprise was lost and many of the terrorists were able to flee and took refuge in another building. After this media was forced further back from the base.

Lets be clear that USA is not providing any arms which it considered can significantly effect the India and every time it provides something to Pakistan It offers India a much better version, i.e. F-16 block 52+ Vs F-16 Block 70 or 30 to 40 year old AH-1F vs AH-64D Block II or P-3C vs P-8I. …

Regards,

India pays in full. Pakistan gets a subsidy. When the USA first provided F-16s & AH-1s to Pakistan in 1983, & Pakistan ordered P-3s in the late 1980s, it wasn’t willing to sell any weapons to India, & had blocked the sale of European aircraft with US engines.

Moderator Message

OK.

That’s the trash taken out.

Fight your flame wars elsewhere, people.

Nationalistic fantasies are not “background”.

Back on-topic, please.

Thanks

GA

thanks jawad.

meanwhile, as expected

Pakistan to ask US for two more Orion planes

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/23/before-attack-pakistans-navy-boasted-of-role-in-fight-against-taliban/?ref=world

Before Attack, Pakistan’s Navy Boasted of Role in Fight Against Taliban

…

As Abdullah Saad, a Pakistani blogger and journalist, pointed out on Monday, Adm. Noman Bashir, the Pakistan navy chief, boasted during an interview on Pakistani television in March that his service had “provided our surveillance aircraft and a contingent of [Pakistan Navy commandos] to operate hand in glove with the Pakistan Army during” a recent offensive against the militants in the tribal areas.

“So Pakistan’s navy,” a smiling admiral told television viewers just two months ago, “was even seen in the mountains, in the north, during these very vital and very important operations. And we are very happy to say that out contribution was quite significant.”

Ok new informations is suggesting that one P-3C Orion burnt out completely with with only the engines left while second one is considered beyond economical repair thus 2 P-3Cs have been written off, while 3rd P-3C got few gunfire rounds.

5 P-3C Orion were at the base and three of were upgraded and another 4 P-3C are currently in USA being upgraded

This means that almost half of the fleet (2 out of 5 in service) are history.

Security personnel who died included one officer Lt. Yasser Abbas, 3 firemen, 3 SSG personnel, 1 sailor and 2 personnel of Pakistan Rangers.

Speaking of which, PNS Alamgir, were is she?
Guess this whole thing blows the chances of getting pics of her.

Last i heard was it was in Oman for their last stop before coming to its new home, Pakistan. But with this kind of mess i find it little difficult

PNS Alamgir (F 260) has already made port calls in Bermuda (UK), Azores (Portugal), Cadiz (Spain), Turkish Naval Base ‘Golcuk ‘, Jeddah (Saudi Arabia) and Salalah (Oman). It was expected to reach Pakistan this month but so far no news.

Guess this whole thing blows the chances of getting pics of her.

looks like it, very unfortunate because i was really looking forward for seeing PNS Alamgir in Pakistan and hoping to get some pictures and additional information about possibility of upgrades to airdefence capability of ship.(Although with PN going for Chinese Type-054A frigates, they might not opt for upgradation due to high cost and old age of the ship)

PNS Alimgair

Speaking of which, PNS Alamgir, were is she?
Guess this whole thing blows the chances of getting pics of her.

so the P3C orions were to track taliban submarines ? what about those with hawkeye packages ?

P3s have been used extensively in the tribal areas for surveillance. Pakistan Navy has accepted that many times.

There are loads of interviews on Youtube, if you want to check.

Next thing you will be asking is, are F-16s to shoot down taliban jets and are Apaches in Afghanistan to hunt Taliban armoured formations.

so the P3C orions were to track taliban submarines ? what about those with hawkeye packages ?

One of the things you should remember is that Pakistan navy is very active member of the Combined Task Force 150 and Combined Task Force 151 which is oversee the the anti piracy and anti terror operations and has commanded these Combined Task Forces multiple times. In fact it was first navy from our region to do so even though it lacked ships and aircrafts.

P-3C were offered to supplement these efforts, sign of goodwill from USA and bonus to US was P-8Is:D. These aircrafts are part of US efforts to build PN for such operations especially as many of these aircrafts are getting retired from USN. In similar fashion Pn is provided with PNS Alimgair which lacks airdefence capability but will be a good addition over Type-21 for PN to be used in support of Combined Task Force operations

so the P3C orions were to track taliban submarines ? what about those with hawkeye packages ?

Lets be clear that USA is not providing any arms which it considered can significantly effect the India and every time it provides something to Pakistan It offers India a much better version, i.e. F-16 block 52+ Vs F-16 Block 70 or 30 to 40 year old AH-1F vs AH-64D Block II or P-3C vs P-8I. One of the very reason F-16 deal was delayed so many times. In the end very limited number was agreed upon so that it doesn’t effect India in significant manner and still keep influence over PAF and allow PAF the much need PGM capability in FATA. If you are keeping in touch with the PAF developments than you will know that even at the highest level it is thought that F-16s are just a bonus till FC-20s becomes available to PAF. PAF have even scale downed the order to save cash for the FC-20s from China.

USA provided Vietnam era 30+ AH-1s many of which spend lots and lots of time on ground because of their age, high maintaince requirements and lack of spares.i remember that at one time there were only five AH-1s were operational and US denied request for 6 to 12 AH-64s on grounds that it will upset India.

A Replacement offer will be difficult in current situation for the USA but at the same time such an offer could very well be an icebreaker for both nations and would send a positive image that USA actually cares for Pakistan unlike these terrorist outfits and their supporters.

One of the issues is the ever increasing public perception that USA is actually siding India, thus demands from government to side more with China

Actually China is one great example, Its a non Muslim country, Still no one on Pakistan questions its crackdown over Muslim extremists/troublemakers, not even the hardliner Islamic parties .

Currently Army and Air force have little penetration as actions were taken as soon as such elements were detected but danger lies not in small fraction which may try to support the attacks but the larger majority which looks may see USA as invading force in case of any unilateral attack.

This is one of the reasons why US government is not going with an all out war of words because they know how much trouble it can create for already shaking relationship where trust levels are very low on both sides.

Regards,

forget the politics, jawad, can you give us a final tally on aircraft damaged ?

2 orions + unidentified aircraft damaged or just 2 orions ?

So far its one completely destroyed and one partially damaged (It is yet to be determined if it is economical to repair it or not). Many claims of 3 P-3C and some helicopters were made but non of those have proven to be near reality.

forget the politics, jawad, can you give us a final tally on aircraft damaged ?

2 orions + unidentified aircraft damaged or just 2 orions ?

if someone just blindly believes what is said to him, it doesn’t make him informed. 😉

If you don’t like what he has to say thats your problem.

or may be he says what his readers (primarily in the west) want to hear ?

with all due respect leiven doesn’t have a friggin’ clue, some of the things he says are childishly naive and uninformed.

but please guys, do not discuss US afghan policy here. I don’t want to get yet another locked thread.

His recent book is one of the best most informed I have read about the country, considering he has been to and lived in the country as well as spent significant time with different groups saying he hasn’t got a clue is a bit uninformed to my eyes. If you don’t like what he has to say thats your problem.

with all due respect leiven doesn’t have a friggin’ clue, some of the things he says are childishly naive and uninformed.

but please guys, do not discuss US afghan policy here. I don’t want to get yet another locked thread.