Auster AOP.9 Identity Assistance

A brief update from over the weekend – if you post around here thanks to everyone who responded ‘off-board’, it’s greatly appreciated. 🙂

Plus one further complication – the current wing set that will hopefully be used in any possible rebuild is not the original one that came with the fuselage! 😮

I would like to thank the last two posters for their detailed input – I think that I need to lie down in a dark room for a while! :confused:

I’m certainly worried for the wellbeing of the ‘spotters’ or whatever we agreed to call them!! 😉

I will make my colleagues at the museum aware of the comments and then try to come to an agreed ‘likely’ identity.

This was debated at some length on of the email forums I frequent, below is what was posted by a contributor:

TA200
I am grateful to Phil Spencer for tabulating the TA 200 saga as it appeared in BARG Roundel as he has saved me the job!

I have never understood how an Auster AOP Mk.9 frame plate marked AUS/R/10/74 dated 10-9-62 has been translated into RAF serial XK378 but as it has been I can only reiterate what I said in messages 7710 and 60625 and which has been detailed by Phil Spencer….XK378 crashed in Malaya on 14-2-58. The aircraft stalled off a steep turn at 500 ft and hit the ground with the engine running at full power: hardly a candidate to become a training aid in the UK 10 years later!

With this accident in mind, it is also worth remembering that no Auster AOP Mk.9 which suffered Category 4 damage in the Far East was ever returned to the UK factory for repairs.

AUS/R/10/74 indicates a repaired frame and, given the method of repairing Category 4 damage at Rearsby, would have been removed from one aircraft, subsequently repaired and rebuilt into another aircraft. I am fairly certain this frame originally came out of XK381 which was being repaired at Rearsby during the Summer 1962 following an accident at Middle Wallop on 22-2-62.

It is really academic which airframe the frame came out of, what is under question is what airframe the frame was subsequently re-used in.

The key to this problem is the build date 10-9-62 which, as such, can only be applicable to one of the last six Auster AOP Mk.9s built at Rearsby. These were XR267 – 271 and XS238. From my own personal observations and those by Mike Draper the following frame plate details relating to some of these aircraft are known:-

XR267 frame No. 184 dat ed 1-1-62
XR268 no frame plate details but first flew 22-2-62
XR269 frame No. 187 dated 26-1-62
XR270 no frame plate details but first flew 27-3-62
XR271 frame No. 188 dated 12-2-62
XS238 no frame plate details but first flew 2-11-62.

Spare frame No. 192 dated 30-11-62
XK418 received Cat 4 damage 26-9-62 and repaired at Rearsby 1-63 to 5-63 using a new (as opposed to a reconditioned component) frame No.192 dated 30-11-62.
From the above frame plate dates it will be readily apparent that the only candidate is the last Mk.9 built, XS238. Phil Spencer’s comment that the component serial numbers he recorded on TA 200 at Haverfordwest ‘were all over the place’ makes sense as this aircraft was built to replace XP254 ( private venture Mk.11) and I have been told by a former Rearsby employee that all the ‘leftovers’ from the Mk.9 contracts were used to manufacture XS238, thus keeping the actual cost of the private venture Mk.11 as low as possible.

Phil Spencer’s other statement that he thought the frame plate on TA 200 was AUS/R/10/174 rather that 74 is a valid comment. I think the original plate has been re-used, thus the original stampings have been hammered out and the new details stamped on. These changes affected the drawing No. line (changed from AA B5 10 601 to AA B5 10 1185), the issue line, the frame No. line (the R added) and the date line (new build date). The changes certainly blur the end result.

My view still remains that TA 200 was formerly XS238 and here I question the final details for XS238 as given in BARG Roundel April 1991, page AP 45….transferred to unit reserve 24-1-66. To 14/20 H Air Sqdn, Libya along with XP234. (Unit became 5 INNIS DG Air Sqdn 1-8-66). Cat 5(C) and SOC 15-7-66 when unit re-equipped with the Sioux AH.1…

Since writing messages 7710 and 60625 I have looked in the 14/20 Hussars file held in the National Archives, Kew and the unit’s movements are given thus:-

3-65 Advance party moved from B enghazi, Libya to UK
22-4-65 Detachment moved Tripoli, Libya to Cyprus as part of UNICYP
20/28-1-66 Main party moved from Benghazi and Cyprus to Perham Down, UK
10-11-66 Advance party moved from Perham Down to Paderborn, Germany
12-12-66 Main party moved from Perham Down to Paderborn.

Unfortunately the 14/20 Hussar’s file does not mention the unit’s equipment at all.

The RAF Form 78 for XS238 gives…
HQ 2 Wing – 21 Flight detached Cyprus (undated)
To unit reserve 24-1-66
2 Wing Libya 15-5-66
Cat 5(C) on 15-7-66 and SOC by Army.

If the RAF Form 78 is correct XS238 became a reserve aircraft at the time 14/20 Hussars returned to the UK during January 1966 but remained in Libya. Does anyone know what units constituted 2 Wing, Libya during May 1966? I have looked at the Kew file for 5 Inniskilling Dragoon Guards and, perhaps appropriately for a Guards regiment, found only details of proposed changes to uniform styles!

Perhaps some of the above helps?!

My regards

Ian W.O’Neill (3413).

Picture of the c/n plate

Here’s one I took of said plate a few years ago at a cockpitfest…

The serial number is AUS R 10 74, on both the plate pictured here and the adjacent mod plate.

The number AA B5 10 1185 has been previously mis identified at the c/n whereas it relates to the part number of the component alone.

I posed the question to Mike Draper, an expert on the history of the Auster in British Army service, this is his reply:

“This has always been a problem. AUS/R-10/174 points to XR237 but the date of 10.9.62 does not tie in with the build date for XR237. The “R” also suggests that the fuselage has undergone major repair. It was not unknown for a Cat.4 aircraft to have its fuselage replaced by a “spare” fuselage and then the original fuselage repaired and placed to “spare” stock. But neither XR237, nor XR238 have ever been reported as Cat.4! Incidentally, Beagle never amended the fuselage serial of a repaired fuselage but did add the “R”. I never saw XR237 close enough to read the cockpit plate. That’s why many websites have guessed the “c/n” sequences.

The final AOP.9 (XR271) was delivered Rrearsby-Middle Wallop 6.4.62 – only XS238 appeared after that (the replacement for XP254 AOP.11) but that emerged in November 1962. XS238 was declared Cat.5(c) in Libya in 1966.

However, TA200 has always been a nightmare. Some say that TA200 was the former WZ667, but this has never been proven.

For information – the histories of XR237 and XR238 are below.

XR237 Awaiting Collection at Rearsby 31.10.61 and issued to 654 LA Sqdn, Hildesheim 21.11.61. To 19 MU 15.9.64. Returned to Rearsby for mods 19.5.65-12.8.65. Released by 19 MU to RAF Odiham 26.5.66 for 38 Group Comms Flt. (Possibly based with RAF Coningsby Stn Flt 1972). SOC 1.6.72. Transferred to Army charge 7.72 for component recovery before being disposed of locally.

XR238 Awaiting Collection at Rearsby 31.10.61 and issued to AAC Centre, Middle Wallop 8.11.61. With Beagle Aircraft Ltd for mods 29.6.64-29.7.64. To 19 MU 15.2.65 for storage. Transferred to RAF stock 1.11.66 and allocated to RAF Odiham 13.1.67 for 38 Group Comms Flt. SOC 1.6.72; returned to Army stock and reduced to components prior to being disposed of locally.

IAPC News (Autumn 1994) illustrates an AOP.9 fuselage that rests in undergrowth at Popham 9.94. Frame plate shows AUS175 17.8.61. “

Bit of a puzzle, isn’t it?

DD

Thanks for the advice David – I have seen a copy of Ian’s written assessment, which errs towards XS238.

However the advice was not conclusive and refers to the possibility of the airframe having been – “……cobbled together an old, damaged fuselage to create XS238”

He also raised the possibility that “If it is XS238, then you are the owner of the first and last Mk.9!!”

I’m not sure whether he was privy to the above mentioned data plate information.

I seem to recall that Ian O Neill identified this one a few years ago -might be worth giving him a ring

Apologies I should have further clarified post #5 – the location that both of you have described is where the two plates were found.

My understanding is that there may be some confusion due to … “its batch production number being some 6 years before its manufacture date on the serial plate” … as mentioned in some correspondence in its Archive File at the museum. :confused:

The standard position of the serial number plate in all older Austers was on the right hand door frame top member between the stbd wing attach fittings. I have rechecked our J5,J1B and J1N and they all comply. Ref Jack’s post above.

Thanks for that comment Jack, which has prompted me to check the information that was provided to me earlier today; the updated situation is as follows:

The main plate on the fuselage carries the following inscriptions:
B5-10-1185 issue 72 10-9-62

Immediately aft is a modification plate it carries the following inscription:
AUS/R -10//74 (the / has been double struck)

I seem to recall that ~the~ plate to look for is located on the frame above entrance door between the two wing mounts.

.

:rolleyes: I had a feeling that it was going to go like this – hence the separate thread!

At least it will stop certain ‘visitors’ asking where it’s stored!! 🙂

Easy solution….

XK381 port side
XS238 stbd side

TA200 under port wing
XR238 under stbd wing

That’ll make for a confusing entry in ‘W&R’ 😮

I’ll go away and do something useful, now…..