Avro 504 forced landing Camber Sands 1935

Now who’s that pomme homme chappie posting on the second website hyperlinked by Lyffe? ?

A couple of links which might be of interest, although they refer primarily to pre-WW1

http://www.ukairfieldguide.net/airfields/Camber

http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1190.0;wap2

“Flight” magazine of 2nd May 1935 carries the advert below which certainly makes Camber sound like it’s a proper aerodrome with some facilities. 

Lots of issues of Flight available on Archive.org 🙂

Thank you, Lyffe.

The airfield mentioned on the website that you’ve hyperlinked was used, if http://www.abct.org.uk/airfields/airfield-finder/rye/ is to be believed, only between 1916 and 1919 by the RFC/RAF/RNAS as a ‘home defence’ site (the sites shown on the two websites seem to show the same location – seemingly being the same as that marked on the attached plan). I’ve found no reference to its subsequent use (although this doesn’t mean that it wasn’t used subsequently). However there is no reference to it either in Peaceful Fields (J.F.Hamlin) or Action Stations (Vol. 9, C.Ashworth). This leads me still to think that ‘the aerodrome’ used by Zenith Airways was ephemeral in nature, may have existed only in 1935 and may have comprised no more than a rented field in which a Bessonneau hangar was erected (if there was even that much – the Avro may have enjoyed no more than a tie down there).

I think Rye ‘airfield’ was just east of the town on open ground between Guldeford and Camber Roads; see  http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/Rye.html .

The Stuart Campbell Brander article in Flight magazine is quoted (probably only in part) on the A Fleeting Peace website – 

http://ata.afleetingpeace.org/index.php/business-pleasure/joyriding-com…

Tonge was working  for Mr T Campbell Black’s  British Empire Air Displays. Ltd during the Summer  of 1936

Thank you. It’s pleasing that this forum can still deliver results, even if with the assistance of other forums. But an interforum network certainly is no bad thing if it facilitates the sharing of knowledge and information.

Now the supplementaries!

From what I’ve read and learnt, to me it seems safe to assume that although the ARB had G-ADGB recorded as an Avro 504N it had, principally by the replacement of the radial Lynx with a rotary Clerget, effectively become an Avro 504K Mk. II.

The Hastings & St Leonards Observer report’s concluding sentence says that: ‘A breakdown van, from a Rye garage, towed the damaged plane to the aerodrome for repairs’ [my italics]. Can anyone identify the aerodrome to which reference is made? I do not know of there having been a formal aerodrome in the Camber/Rye area. Evidently it was not the beach at Camber. Could it have been a field on the landward side of the dunes at Camber that served this purpose during the summer season when Zenith was operating from the beach? Could it have been a case of one Bessoneau hangar in a field makes aerodrome!

Its unfortunate that the Flight magazine online archive is still offline. In 1951 it published an article by Stuart Campbell Brander concerning the summer of ’35 activities of Zenith Airways on and flying off the beach at Camber Sands (judging by the article, the author appears to have been the on-site ground engineer employed by Zenith). In the hope that the archive comes back online and that these hyperlinks then still work, the article is to be found at http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD…20-%200553.PDF and http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD…20-%200554.PDF .

All

Malcolm Fillmore of Air Britain says amongst others

“This was interesting since I hadn’t had that accident previously listed.”

“I think there can be almost no doubt that the Avro 504 in question was 504N G-ADGB.  This is despite the wholly erroneous (and linked) information published on Aviation Safety Network “

“Zenith only ever had two Avro 504N’s G-ADGB and G-ADGC.  G-ADGC was never overhauled and eventually ended up with John Coxon of Southern Motor Co at Croydon (later Gatwick) in 1937.  G-ADGB was known to have been operating from Camber Sands and its registration was cancelled in June 1936 as wfu.  It is also shown as having been ‘sold’ in First quarter 1936 in the ICANS Registers.  Since its CofA was never renewed after first being issued 19 June 1935, it was probably sold for spares/scrap and from a lack of any further published information, one can reasonably assume that after the accident, Zenith Airways simply packed up – possibly as a result of adverse publicity or that the owner of Zenith (who appears to have been a passenger in the accident) thought better of the project.”

“G-ADGB was one of four Avro 504Ns acquired ex RAF by Aviation Commerce Limited at Croydon; two (G-ADGB/C) were sold on to LJ Braddock & partners (seemingly founders of Zenith Airways) and two (G-ADGM/N) were initially retained although G-ADGM was registered to Aircraft & Autos Ltd (a company owned by John Coxon) a few days after its CofA was issued in July 1935 (it was later probably operated by Chilworth Flying Club on joyflights). “

“Aviation Safety Network also state therein that G-ADGC was never registered to Zenith.  But it was – CofR no.5949 was issued to Zenith Airways Ltd of Camber Sands on 6 June 1935”.

Thank you, gentlemen. I think that I can consider it improbable that G-ADGC was the aeroplane that made the forced landing at Camber Sands in August 1935.

If there are some who think my reply to cometguymk1 of this morning was rather enigmatic, take a look at http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=892.0.

Just to add that the production list goes on to state ” C. of A. issued – Nil” for ‘GC

Almost their – Can see 18 gallon tank

Avro aircraft since 1908 – Page 105

Avro 504K Mk.II In 1924 the Hamble works produced a hybrid trainer known as the Avro 504K Mk.II 
and consisting of a flat sided 504K fuselage married to 504N – type undercarriage and mainplanes. 
The reasons underlying the creation of this strange variant were twofound, firstly to enable
air forces of the smaller nations to modernise their 504K trainers using Avro-built
conversion kits,or alternatively to provide low price 504N equivalents powered by
cheap surplus 100 hp Gnome Monosoupape rotaries. While there is no record of 
conversion taking place overseas, a very similar machine, named the vro Anahuac, was built under licence in the Mexican Air Force workshops at Balbuena, serials round and about 53. 

The Avro 504K Mk.II was shelved but in 1935 four ex-RAF Avro 504N airframes, long stored at Croydon, were brought out and converted into joyriding three-seaters with 130 hp Clerget engines. They were
therefore equivalent to the Avro 504K Mk II of 11 years previously differing from 
the prototype only in the type of engine, rounded sides, untapered ailerons, absence of 
wingtip skids and fuel tankage. The 1935 machines had one 18 gallon tank under 
the port upper wing root in the manner of the Mongoose- …

 … They were registered G-ADGB, ‘GC, ‘GM and ‘GN but work on G- ADGC was not completed.

The other three endured one season’s joyriding at Camber Sands, Sussex, with Zenith Airways, although ‘GM and ‘GN were nominally owned by Aircraft and Autos Ltd and Aviation Commerce Ltd of Croydon respectively. None flew after 1935 …

Hi AA.  Avro Aircraft since 1908 has this to say on the 504K Mk IIs –

The Avro 504K Mk. II was shelved but in 1935 four ex R.A.F. Avro S04N airframes, long stored at Croydon, were brought out and converted into joyriding three seaters with 130 h.p. Clerget engines. They were therefore equivalent to the Avro 504K Mk. II of 11 years previously, differing from the prototype only in the type of engine, rounded sides, untapered ailerons, absence of wing tip skids and fuel tankage. The 1935 machines had one 18 gallon tank under the port upper wing root in the manner of the Mongoose powered civil Avro S04N instead of the slim centre section tank of the prototype. They were registered G-ADGB, ‘GC, ‘GM and ‘GN but work on G-ADGC was not completed. The other three endured one season’s joyriding at Camber Sands, Sussex, with Zenith Airways, although ‘GM and ‘GN were nominally owned by Aircraft and Autos Ltd. and Aviation Commerce Ltd. of Croydon respectively. None flew after 1935 except ‘GM which was acquired by Brooklands Aviation Ltd. for joyriding at Shoreham. In the wintcr it was employed on school work at Brooklands and was destroyed there in a hangar fire on October 24, 1936. 

It sounds like ‘GC never flew with Zenith.

As  J8758, Avro 504N, had ground accident Duxford 7 Oct,1928, it is possible that it would have been able to be converted with a flat fuselage – Shame that newspaper photos is not lighter – So a serial can be read

Thank you, Paul. I do trust that you noted my use of the word ‘most’ when, earlier this morning, I said that: ‘ There used to be a wealth of knowledge here – both in breadth and depth – but most of it seems to have given up and gone elsewhere since the last upgrade.’!

I feel that even if one cannot say it with absolute certainty, G-ADGB is by far the strongest candidate for the Camber forced landing. As to G-ADGC, BCAR 1919-99 says that this was not converted (I do not know whether than means not converted from a military 504N or not retro-converted from a 504N to a 504K Mk. II) but that doesn’t mean that, in August 1935, it was not operating as a 504N, rather than as a 504K Mk. II.

If I manage it successfully (!), I’m attaching a copy of the Hastings & St Leonards Observer report on the Camber forced landing.

The plane which ditched was Moth G-EBVK

Paul

XXXX Deleted

Thames Incident 10th Dec 1934

G-EBV?

Based on photo

Published: Monday 07 September 1936
Newspaper: The Scotsman

NARROW ESCAPES RECALLED Mr Tonge had served in the R.A.F. He was unmarried, and lived in West. Avenue, Wallington. Some years ago he ran out of petrol while over London, and put his machine safely in the Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament, then stepped off the sinking machine to a barge. Last year he was Flying at Camber  Sands, and engine trouble developed. For a moment or two it looked as if he would land on the crowded beach. but with great presence of mind he swerved the machine, and landed at the edge of the shore. A few months a Tonge had another narrow escape. from the North Country with two passengers, he ran into heavy mist, and to avoid hitting a hillside, put the machine into a tree. He suffered head injuries, but his passengers were unhurt. It is probable that engine trouble developed this time, as Mr Tonge, in such circumstances. favoured lending in a tree to break impact with the ground. 
 

PS

His name definitely

Bartholomew’ Furse Tonge (aged 27 or 28), of Wallington, Surrey

His Obit appears in Dundee Evening Telegraph and Post Page 5 Monday 07 September 1936

Says younger son of Mr and Mrs Thomas Tonge of Dundee 

Scotlands People has

TONGE

BARTHOLOMEW FUR

M

1907

282/4 1396

St Andrew (Dundee)