Avro Lancaster flypast

J Fecht, I am so pleased you have registered here , and are able to throw more light on the events of March 6th. As you observe, pre-interenet it was a long lonely slog to dig back into past events , and it is amazing how now you can suddenly stumble upon a cache of information for which you have searching for years. Your account of Bill Hart’s escape is an incredible story, and it is gratifying that even now, new details can emerge.

This is a forum about historic aircraft, but as often happens, it is the human stories which end up having the most resonance, and show how traumatic past events echo down through the years, shaping people and their outlook, one or even two generations later. I hope you are able to come to the UK sometime, and visit that peaceful valley. If you can come, I would be pleased to take you to the site, and show you round . Drop me a line at [EMAIL=”andrew4547@ntlworld.com“]andrew4547@ntlworld.com[/EMAIL] if that might be of interest.

They were all very brave men, and paid a terrible price, even the sole survivor. As their living representatives, to you and J Gould, we thank you for their service.

The knock on effect from the war and PTSD affected the generations afterwards .Thank you for posting the update ,it certainly shows the human side and the aftermath 🙁

I just want to register my thanks for the posters to this thread. It is rare indeed (and, judging by a recent programme on The Blitz becoming more common) to read from a connected family member about the ripple effect caused by the loss of a loved one during the war. Powerful reading.

Just came across this thread and made an account just to post here. Bill Hart, the tailgunner and lone survivor of PB475, is/was my grandfather. First, my grandfather died in 1994 after a prolonged battle with pancreatic cancer. The information on https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=159300 has been updated.

My grandfather only spoke of the crash to me once, but the story is well known by his children (my mum and uncles) and I will try to recount it as best I can. I am sure there will be inaccuracies in the telling. The story goes:

Two days before the crash, my grandfather was in a pub talking to another Lancaster tailgunner. In the course of the conversation, the other tailgunner told my grandfather of a new way to pack a parachute that, while it made sitting in the cramped glass bubble even more uncomfortable, allowed for the chute to deploy at low altitudes. The night of the crash was the first time my grandfather packed his parachute in that manner, and is the reason her survived. As PB475 was flying to their primary target, they discovered it had been bombed thoroughly already, and for some reason their secondary target was unfeasible, so they returned home. Upon descent, one of the bomb altimeters went off, causing a catastrophic chain reaction and explosion. My grandfather blamed the altimeter on the ground crew, whom he said was rushing off to go on a date whilst loading the bombs, and it was his fault the plane crashed; he said that when he saw this person days after, he had to be restrained as he wanted to murder the crewman. Back to the plane, after the first altimeter went off, my grandfather felt the noise and vibration like never before, and without even thinking, he jumped through the escape hatch. He said he felt the heat from the blast, and the shockwave likely saved him from death or being burnt alive, as it pushed him clear of the blast before his chute deployed. As he drifted down safely, unharmed, he watched his friends die, and knew there was nothing he could do to save them. He said that those men on board were his brothers, and that a part of him died that night as well.

From personal experience, this incident had a profound effect on our family. Both my grandfather and grandmother, an RAF nurse, suffered from what would now be classified as Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, and their relationship crumbled. Of course this affected their children: my mother and 2 uncles, all of whom bear the psychological scars of being raised by troubled parents. Both grandparents were prone to self-medicating with alcohol, cigarettes, and questionable romantic relationships, and both turned a corner in their 60s for the better. Unfortunately, that was also the last decade of life for them both.

I am truly sorry I just came across this post now. My grandfather passed when I was still very young, and as he didn’t talk about this incident much, it was relatively hard to find information until the internet. My mum has visited the Asheridge before the commemoration, looking for the crash site, so she will be thrilled to know this happened and the stone exists. Next time I am in England (family is in Canada), I will be sure to go.

Thank you to everyone who posted, and for the commemoration. My grandad would have been a mess of tears and gratitude had he been there.

Thanks Andy. Hopefully some help will be forthcoming. I did find old auction on ebay via a Google search a few months ago for a part of PB475. I did contact the seller asking about any further information about the other parts but didn’t get a response.

Hi Jez,

No apologies needed, and thanks for taking the time to register, and letting us know your connection to this sad event

I do not have any contact to help you, I am afraid, but this forum is widely read, and may well come up with some answers.

The location of this aeroplane is the nearest crash site my home I think, and I have a special affinity with it. I pass the site often, and always pause to remember the crew who so nearly made it through the war, just another 8 weeks to VE Day.

Thanks again, and best wishes

Andy Smith

Apologies for bringing up this old thread. F/O John Gould (the pilot of PB475) was my uncle. I recall that some parts of his recovered aircraft (including a couple of engines) were on display at the now defunct Booker Air Museum. I don’t suppose anyone here has any information about what may have happened to them? I’d be very interested to find out. One of the items was his log book (which was lent to the museum by John’s older brother as I recall), but luckily David King from the Aircrew Remembrance Society was wise enough to take pictures of every page. I’m gradually uploading copies of the operational pages here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jezgould/sets/72157646525964404/

An aerial photography mission gave a chance to photograph the site yesterday.

The big stone cairn can be seen, and the gap in the hedge where the aeroplane came down

The site is on a bearing of 350 degrees, 465 metres from the Blue Ball Pub, Asheridge.

Just to add to this thread : the full story of the 582 Squadron Lancaster and its crew is contained in the book ‘Swifter Than Eagles’ written and published in Australia in 1987 by C B Hewitt. It’s a tough one to track down but well worth while.

Thanks for the info. I obtained a copy of the book (& was lucky enough to find it signed by the author). A great read, and a fantastic insight into all the twists and turns in the crews’ individual life stories and routes through their training that lead to them coming together.

A moving and memorable read indeed

Richard, I’d be very interested in copies of those, if you still have them available. Rgds, Ian

Hi Andy,
I have scanned both docs but they exceed the max allowed, they are both over 1mb!! I can email them to you?

That’s very interesting, Richard.

Could you scan and post here ?

Andy Smith

Lancaster PB474 582 Sqn

If anyone is interested I have two A4 sheets that were left on the floor when the small museum at Booker closed it’s doors a few years ago now. They detail the operations, crew, reason for crash and location together with a picture of the crew together and a funeral. I can scan these and email if anyone is interested or you are more than welcome to the original copies as I do not need them.

Thanks for posting this…an honourable tribute to a tragic event.

Wonderful tribute. Thanks for posting. Powerfully moving. Well done.

🙂 very moving lovely tribute – thank you.:)

Arthur James has posted a very moving film of the memorial service back in May.

It is touching that enough people still care that these events and sacrifices still have a currency today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_yEUszkei0

Just to add to this thread : the full story of the 582 Squadron Lancaster and its crew is contained in the book ‘Swifter Than Eagles’ written and published in Australia in 1987 by C B Hewitt. It’s a tough one to track down but well worth while.

Stickman, look at the third from bottom entry here http://www.156squadron.com/display_newpff_roll.asp?ID=582

There is also locations of the graves of the crew listed in Google.

The site was investigated sometime in 1980 by, I think, the Aircrew Rememberance Society. A ‘great deal’ of material was recovered, including the two starboard engines. Once of them, I think, is now at at RAF museum.

Avro Lancaster flypast – Bellingdon.

Pretty certain this is PB475 of No.582 Sqdn from Little Staughton . It was returning from Chemnitz on 5/6.3.45(note date) when a hung up target indicator ignited in the bomb bay . Records state it came down near Bellingdon at 01.00hrs, sadly six of the crew were killed only the rear gunner survived by bailing out.It was coded “60:C”.

More info about this.

The sole survivor, Bill Hart never got over the fact that he survived. He married his girlfirend soon after and emigrated to Canada. He divorced his wife in 1970 and moved to Florida to run a limo and taxi servie. Regretfully alcohol continued to be a big part of his life and he died in 1980.

On a better note, the nephew of Glen Torr, one of the Australian airmen who died, (Jim Torr) and his daughter came to the site on 15th June 2010. Glen’s brother is still alive and had a commemorative plaque made which was placed at the crash site. The landowner had arranged for this plaque to be mounted on a huge piece of puddingstone ( a natural agglommeration found in the region) and flypast was organised to co-incide with a small service and blessing with representatives form the RAF and RAAF. It was kept secret by the landowner and about 30 invited persons attended. How sad that such an occasion was kept this way. The motive seems to be to keep the site secret – there could have been another way. Not even reported in the local papers……